Author Topic: British Ordinary Bitter critique & suggestions  (Read 4772 times)

Offline 2brew559

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British Ordinary Bitter critique & suggestions
« on: May 11, 2016, 08:56:39 PM »
Hi every one.. been a while!


Was wondering if you guys anf chicas :)  could critique this British ordinary Bitter, especially the crystal amount.. should I increase to 1lb or leave as is...?  Ive never made this style but I had a Firestone DBA and it was good not awesome but I could drink it and others/ guest said they could drink it...

so I want to try my  skillzz at it .

Mash at 153F for 60 Min
Yeast: WLP002 vs 005

I added .75lb of flaked barley to give it a tad smoothness..

right now Im at 10% Total for Crystal :) 

I was thinking of dropping .25lbs from the Base grain and addingit  to the crystal Carastan  so it would look like this
.75lb carastan and .25 caraoma = 1lb of crystal




Method: All Grain
Style: Ordinary Bitter   
Boil Time: 60 min
Batch Size: 5.5 gallons (fermentor volume)   
Boil Size: 7.34 gallons
Boil Gravity: 1.030 (recipe based estimate)
Efficiency: 80% (brew house)   
Original Gravity: 1.040
Final Gravity: 1.011
ABV (standard): 3.72%
IBU (tinseth): 32.77
SRM (morey): 8.57

Fermentables
Amount   Fermentable   PPG   °L   Bill %
4.5 lb   United Kingdom - Golden Promise   37   3   60%
1.5 lb   United Kingdom - Maris Otter Pale   38   3.75   20%
0.75 lb   Flaked Barley   32   2.2   10%
0.5 lb   United Kingdom - Carastan (30/37)   35   34   6.7%
0.25 lb   German - CaraAroma   34   130   3.3%
7.5 lb   Total
           
Hops
Amount   Variety   Type   AA   Use   Time   IBU
1 oz   Fuggles   Pellet   5   Boil   60 min   20.71
0.5 oz East Kent Goldings   Pellet   5   Boil   20 min   6.27
1 oz   Cascade   Pellet   7   Boil   5 min   5.78

Hops Summary
Amount   Variety   Type   AA
5 min: 1 oz   Cascade   Pellet   7
20 min: 0.5 oz   East Kent Goldings   Pellet   5
60 min: 1 oz   Fuggles   Pellet   5

Mash Guidelines
Amount   Description   Type   Temp   Time
2.91 gal   Mash in   Infusion   153 F   60 min
5.38 gal   Mash out   Sparge   170 F   15 min
Starting Mash Thickness: 1.55   qt/lb

JUST A REGULAR GUY WHO BREWS!
Aplaudir Amigos Y Amigas  :)

RPIScotty

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Re: British Ordinary Bitter critique & suggestions
« Reply #1 on: May 12, 2016, 12:03:37 AM »
Hi every one.. been a while!


Was wondering if you guys anf chicas :)  could critique this British ordinary Bitter, especially the crystal amount.. should I increase to 1lb or leave as is...?  Ive never made this style but I had a Firestone DBA and it was good not awesome but I could drink it and others/ guest said they could drink it...

so I want to try my  skillzz at it .

Mash at 153F for 60 Min
Yeast: WLP002 vs 005

I added .75lb of flaked barley to give it a tad smoothness..

right now Im at 10% Total for Crystal :) 

I was thinking of dropping .25lbs from the Base grain and addingit  to the crystal Carastan  so it would look like this
.75lb carastan and .25 caraoma = 1lb of crystal




Method: All Grain
Style: Ordinary Bitter   
Boil Time: 60 min
Batch Size: 5.5 gallons (fermentor volume)   
Boil Size: 7.34 gallons
Boil Gravity: 1.030 (recipe based estimate)
Efficiency: 80% (brew house)   
Original Gravity: 1.040
Final Gravity: 1.011
ABV (standard): 3.72%
IBU (tinseth): 32.77
SRM (morey): 8.57

Fermentables
Amount   Fermentable   PPG   °L   Bill %
4.5 lb   United Kingdom - Golden Promise   37   3   60%
1.5 lb   United Kingdom - Maris Otter Pale   38   3.75   20%
0.75 lb   Flaked Barley   32   2.2   10%
0.5 lb   United Kingdom - Carastan (30/37)   35   34   6.7%
0.25 lb   German - CaraAroma   34   130   3.3%
7.5 lb   Total
           
Hops
Amount   Variety   Type   AA   Use   Time   IBU
1 oz   Fuggles   Pellet   5   Boil   60 min   20.71
0.5 oz East Kent Goldings   Pellet   5   Boil   20 min   6.27
1 oz   Cascade   Pellet   7   Boil   5 min   5.78

Hops Summary
Amount   Variety   Type   AA
5 min: 1 oz   Cascade   Pellet   7
20 min: 0.5 oz   East Kent Goldings   Pellet   5
60 min: 1 oz   Fuggles   Pellet   5

Mash Guidelines
Amount   Description   Type   Temp   Time
2.91 gal   Mash in   Infusion   153 F   60 min
5.38 gal   Mash out   Sparge   170 F   15 min
Starting Mash Thickness: 1.55   qt/lb

I would say stick with a single base malt and lose everything else. Add a medium or dark British crystal malt at 5-6%.

Offline 2brew559

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Re: British Ordinary Bitter critique & suggestions
« Reply #2 on: May 12, 2016, 12:16:14 AM »
Hi every one.. been a while!


Was wondering if you guys anf chicas :)  could critique this British ordinary Bitter, especially the crystal amount.. should I increase to 1lb or leave as is...?  Ive never made this style but I had a Firestone DBA and it was good not awesome but I could drink it and others/ guest said they could drink it...

so I want to try my  skillzz at it .

Mash at 153F for 60 Min
Yeast: WLP002 vs 005

I added .75lb of flaked barley to give it a tad smoothness..

right now Im at 10% Total for Crystal :) 

I was thinking of dropping .25lbs from the Base grain and addingit  to the crystal Carastan  so it would look like this
.75lb carastan and .25 caraoma = 1lb of crystal




Method: All Grain
Style: Ordinary Bitter   
Boil Time: 60 min
Batch Size: 5.5 gallons (fermentor volume)   
Boil Size: 7.34 gallons
Boil Gravity: 1.030 (recipe based estimate)
Efficiency: 80% (brew house)   
Original Gravity: 1.040
Final Gravity: 1.011
ABV (standard): 3.72%
IBU (tinseth): 32.77
SRM (morey): 8.57

Fermentables
Amount   Fermentable   PPG   °L   Bill %
4.5 lb   United Kingdom - Golden Promise   37   3   60%
1.5 lb   United Kingdom - Maris Otter Pale   38   3.75   20%
0.75 lb   Flaked Barley   32   2.2   10%
0.5 lb   United Kingdom - Carastan (30/37)   35   34   6.7%
0.25 lb   German - CaraAroma   34   130   3.3%
7.5 lb   Total
           
Hops
Amount   Variety   Type   AA   Use   Time   IBU
1 oz   Fuggles   Pellet   5   Boil   60 min   20.71
0.5 oz East Kent Goldings   Pellet   5   Boil   20 min   6.27
1 oz   Cascade   Pellet   7   Boil   5 min   5.78

Hops Summary
Amount   Variety   Type   AA
5 min: 1 oz   Cascade   Pellet   7
20 min: 0.5 oz   East Kent Goldings   Pellet   5
60 min: 1 oz   Fuggles   Pellet   5

Mash Guidelines
Amount   Description   Type   Temp   Time
2.91 gal   Mash in   Infusion   153 F   60 min
5.38 gal   Mash out   Sparge   170 F   15 min
Starting Mash Thickness: 1.55   qt/lb

I would say stick with a single base malt and lose everything else. Add a medium or dark British crystal malt at 5-6%.
RPIscotty,

Thanks for the input...:)
Great advice as always on here..

Out of curiosity and because I love to know why something "is"..why simplify to that degree..not that I'm questioning u..never made one so your def.better than me ::

I'm.just curious..

Oh and I'm on board with what your saying simplify is usually best, I learned taht here from you people!
« Last Edit: May 12, 2016, 12:22:22 AM by 2brew559 »
JUST A REGULAR GUY WHO BREWS!
Aplaudir Amigos Y Amigas  :)

RPIScotty

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Re: British Ordinary Bitter critique & suggestions
« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2016, 02:18:55 AM »
Hi every one.. been a while!


Was wondering if you guys anf chicas :)  could critique this British ordinary Bitter, especially the crystal amount.. should I increase to 1lb or leave as is...?  Ive never made this style but I had a Firestone DBA and it was good not awesome but I could drink it and others/ guest said they could drink it...

so I want to try my  skillzz at it .

Mash at 153F for 60 Min
Yeast: WLP002 vs 005

I added .75lb of flaked barley to give it a tad smoothness..

right now Im at 10% Total for Crystal :) 

I was thinking of dropping .25lbs from the Base grain and addingit  to the crystal Carastan  so it would look like this
.75lb carastan and .25 caraoma = 1lb of crystal




Method: All Grain
Style: Ordinary Bitter   
Boil Time: 60 min
Batch Size: 5.5 gallons (fermentor volume)   
Boil Size: 7.34 gallons
Boil Gravity: 1.030 (recipe based estimate)
Efficiency: 80% (brew house)   
Original Gravity: 1.040
Final Gravity: 1.011
ABV (standard): 3.72%
IBU (tinseth): 32.77
SRM (morey): 8.57

Fermentables
Amount   Fermentable   PPG   °L   Bill %
4.5 lb   United Kingdom - Golden Promise   37   3   60%
1.5 lb   United Kingdom - Maris Otter Pale   38   3.75   20%
0.75 lb   Flaked Barley   32   2.2   10%
0.5 lb   United Kingdom - Carastan (30/37)   35   34   6.7%
0.25 lb   German - CaraAroma   34   130   3.3%
7.5 lb   Total
           
Hops
Amount   Variety   Type   AA   Use   Time   IBU
1 oz   Fuggles   Pellet   5   Boil   60 min   20.71
0.5 oz East Kent Goldings   Pellet   5   Boil   20 min   6.27
1 oz   Cascade   Pellet   7   Boil   5 min   5.78

Hops Summary
Amount   Variety   Type   AA
5 min: 1 oz   Cascade   Pellet   7
20 min: 0.5 oz   East Kent Goldings   Pellet   5
60 min: 1 oz   Fuggles   Pellet   5

Mash Guidelines
Amount   Description   Type   Temp   Time
2.91 gal   Mash in   Infusion   153 F   60 min
5.38 gal   Mash out   Sparge   170 F   15 min
Starting Mash Thickness: 1.55   qt/lb

I would say stick with a single base malt and lose everything else. Add a medium or dark British crystal malt at 5-6%.
RPIscotty,

Thanks for the input...:)
Great advice as always on here..

Out of curiosity and because I love to know why something "is"..why simplify to that degree..not that I'm questioning u..never made one so your def.better than me ::

I'm.just curious..

Oh and I'm on board with what your saying simplify is usually best, I learned taht here from you people!

I would think that in a recipe like a Bitter you would let the yeast give most of the character. Pick a good base malt like Maris Otter or GP and use maybe a mix of 75 and 150 Lovibond English crystal for color and some flavor.

I would think:

94% MO or GP
  4% English Medium Crystal
  2% English Dark Crystal

would be something I'd play with. The Fullers recipes are a nice place to start.


Offline 2brew559

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Re: British Ordinary Bitter critique & suggestions
« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2016, 02:37:10 AM »
Hi every one.. been a while!


Was wondering if you guys anf chicas :)  could critique this British ordinary Bitter, especially the crystal amount.. should I increase to 1lb or leave as is...?  Ive never made this style but I had a Firestone DBA and it was good not awesome but I could drink it and others/ guest said they could drink it...

so I want to try my  skillzz at it .

Mash at 153F for 60 Min
Yeast: WLP002 vs 005

I added .75lb of flaked barley to give it a tad smoothness..

right now Im at 10% Total for Crystal :) 

I was thinking of dropping .25lbs from the Base grain and addingit  to the crystal Carastan  so it would look like this
.75lb carastan and .25 caraoma = 1lb of crystal




Method: All Grain
Style: Ordinary Bitter   
Boil Time: 60 min
Batch Size: 5.5 gallons (fermentor volume)   
Boil Size: 7.34 gallons
Boil Gravity: 1.030 (recipe based estimate)
Efficiency: 80% (brew house)   
Original Gravity: 1.040
Final Gravity: 1.011
ABV (standard): 3.72%
IBU (tinseth): 32.77
SRM (morey): 8.57

Fermentables
Amount   Fermentable   PPG   °L   Bill %
4.5 lb   United Kingdom - Golden Promise   37   3   60%
1.5 lb   United Kingdom - Maris Otter Pale   38   3.75   20%
0.75 lb   Flaked Barley   32   2.2   10%
0.5 lb   United Kingdom - Carastan (30/37)   35   34   6.7%
0.25 lb   German - CaraAroma   34   130   3.3%
7.5 lb   Total
           
Hops
Amount   Variety   Type   AA   Use   Time   IBU
1 oz   Fuggles   Pellet   5   Boil   60 min   20.71
0.5 oz East Kent Goldings   Pellet   5   Boil   20 min   6.27
1 oz   Cascade   Pellet   7   Boil   5 min   5.78

Hops Summary
Amount   Variety   Type   AA
5 min: 1 oz   Cascade   Pellet   7
20 min: 0.5 oz   East Kent Goldings   Pellet   5
60 min: 1 oz   Fuggles   Pellet   5

Mash Guidelines
Amount   Description   Type   Temp   Time
2.91 gal   Mash in   Infusion   153 F   60 min
5.38 gal   Mash out   Sparge   170 F   15 min
Starting Mash Thickness: 1.55   qt/lb

I would say stick with a single base malt and lose everything else. Add a medium or dark British crystal malt at 5-6%.
RPIscotty,

Thanks for the input...:)
Great advice as always on here..

Out of curiosity and because I love to know why something "is"..why simplify to that degree..not that I'm questioning u..never made one so your def.better than me ::

I'm.just curious..

Oh and I'm on board with what your saying simplify is usually best, I learned taht here from you people!

I would think that in a recipe like a Bitter you would let the yeast give most of the character. Pick a good base malt like Maris Otter or GP and use maybe a mix of 75 and 150 Lovibond English crystal for color and some flavor.

I would think:

94% MO or GP
  4% English Medium Crystal
  2% English Dark Crystal

would be something I'd play with. The Fullers recipes are a nice place to start.
Thanks RPI
I mean everything u said makes sense
:) Gonna see what I come up with based on ur advice :

Again gracias !

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

JUST A REGULAR GUY WHO BREWS!
Aplaudir Amigos Y Amigas  :)

Offline charles1968

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Re: British Ordinary Bitter critique & suggestions
« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2016, 07:05:27 AM »
Yep, simplify and cut the crystal to around 5%. I would raise IBU to nearer 40. It's safer to be overbittered than under as the beer will mellow with time, but an underbittered beer will never improve and will always taste bland.

You'll get better character with an English yeast like US-04 or Windsor.

Offline erockrph

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Re: British Ordinary Bitter critique & suggestions
« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2016, 11:31:11 AM »
Yep, simplify and cut the crystal to around 5%. I would raise IBU to nearer 40. It's safer to be overbittered than under as the beer will mellow with time, but an underbittered beer will never improve and will always taste bland.

You'll get better character with an English yeast like US-04 or Windsor.
I think either WLP002 or WLP005 were the original yeast choices. I would strongly recommend WLP002 out of those two. I've heard that it's possible to make good beer with Ringwood (WLP005), but I have yet to taste proof of that. WLP002 makes a great bitter.
Eric B.

Finally got around to starting a homebrewing blog: The Hop Whisperer

Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: British Ordinary Bitter critique & suggestions
« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2016, 12:12:24 PM »
You want the water to have some SO4. The yeast needs to give esters, I have been just pitching from the package, no starter, and just pump the wort into the fermenter, which gives it plenty of air (no pure O2). Ferment warmer too.
Jeff Rankert
Ann Arbor Brewers Guild
AHA Governing Committee
BJCP National
Home-brewing, not just a hobby, it is a lifestyle!

Offline dilluh98

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Re: British Ordinary Bitter critique & suggestions
« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2016, 03:45:22 PM »
You want the water to have some SO4. The yeast needs to give esters, I have been just pitching from the package, no starter, and just pump the wort into the fermenter, which gives it plenty of air (no pure O2). Ferment warmer too.

All of these things. An ordinary bitter recipe should be anything but complex. Another route to go would be to skip the crystal all together and go with 98-99% MO + 1-2% pale chocolate malt for a touch of color and complexity (maybe some torrified wheat for a bit of body, too). Yeast drives this style of beer so go with the advice above - underpitch, let it run warmer than you think it should and open ferment if you're courageous.

Other brewers who do a ton more British ale brewing than I do have even said you could make a tasty bitter with a SMaSH of: MO + EKG. Just make sure to abuse that yeast a bit to get the character out of it.

Offline stpug

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Re: British Ordinary Bitter critique & suggestions
« Reply #9 on: May 12, 2016, 04:24:59 PM »
You want the water to have some SO4. The yeast needs to give esters, I have been just pitching from the package, no starter, and just pump the wort into the fermenter, which gives it plenty of air (no pure O2). Ferment warmer too.

All of these things. An ordinary bitter recipe should be anything but complex. Another route to go would be to skip the crystal all together and go with 98-99% MO + 1-2% pale chocolate malt for a touch of color and complexity (maybe some torrified wheat for a bit of body, too). Yeast drives this style of beer so go with the advice above - underpitch, let it run warmer than you think it should and open ferment if you're courageous.

I agree that so4, simple grainbill, warm-side fermentation, balanced british hop character, and yeast ester production are the keys to a good ordinary bitter.  The only point I would like to mention is on ester production from yeast.

It's widely accepted in homebrewing that underpitching is supposed to promote ester production.  Contrary to this "common knowledge", Neva Parker from White Labs has mentioned a few times over the years that ester production is actually enhanced with higher pitching rates because the yeast compound Acetyl CoA is directed towards ester formation, instead of yeast growth.  After having played a few times with drastically low pitching rates in hopes of achieving significant ester formation in British beers, and failing to achieve my goal, I am under the impression that Neva may be correct (who'd a thunk it?).  Couple an elevated pitching rate with low-end aeration (shaking only) and I think you have a recipe for reasonable ester formation.

Neva's mention of this at discussion at NB a few years back: https://youtu.be/2vELwUsBmWQ?t=1110

As for recipes I've made, and been proud of:
85% MO
5% Wheat Malt
10% Invert #2
Fuggles @60 for 26ibu
Golding @15 for 7ibu
Golding @5 for 2 ibu
OG 1.047
IBU 35
Wyest 1187 (the scary old Ringwood ;) )
« Last Edit: May 12, 2016, 04:29:32 PM by stpug »

Offline dilluh98

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Re: British Ordinary Bitter critique & suggestions
« Reply #10 on: May 12, 2016, 04:30:30 PM »
Interesting. Maybe Mark can chime in on this. Maybe I'll split my next batch of best bitter and severely over pitch one and underpitch the other.

Offline narcout

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Re: British Ordinary Bitter critique & suggestions
« Reply #11 on: May 12, 2016, 04:50:20 PM »
Interesting. Maybe Mark can chime in on this. Maybe I'll split my next batch of best bitter and severely over pitch one and underpitch the other.

He has: http://www.experimentalbrew.com/blogs/saccharomyces/have-you-seen-ester

There are so many variables that affect ester formation.  Have you read Yeast
It's too close to home
And it's too near the bone

Offline stpug

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Re: British Ordinary Bitter critique & suggestions
« Reply #12 on: May 12, 2016, 04:56:38 PM »
Interesting. Maybe Mark can chime in on this. Maybe I'll split my next batch of best bitter and severely over pitch one and underpitch the other.

A split batch would fun to compare the end results, and my expectations would be that they are barely (if at all) different from each other.  However, I don't think going "severely" in either direction is necessary; I suspect that a typical, low British ale pitch vs. a typical, norm-accepted IPA pitch would be sufficient coupled with non-excessive aeration (particularly in the case of an ordinary or special bitter).  I'd still like to eek something more out of the 1768 strain I put through the ringer over the winter - if it has it to give - it hasn't given it up yet :D

Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: British Ordinary Bitter critique & suggestions
« Reply #13 on: May 12, 2016, 05:02:49 PM »
You want the water to have some SO4. The yeast needs to give esters, I have been just pitching from the package, no starter, and just pump the wort into the fermenter, which gives it plenty of air (no pure O2). Ferment warmer too.

All of these things. An ordinary bitter recipe should be anything but complex. Another route to go would be to skip the crystal all together and go with 98-99% MO + 1-2% pale chocolate malt for a touch of color and complexity (maybe some torrified wheat for a bit of body, too). Yeast drives this style of beer so go with the advice above - underpitch, let it run warmer than you think it should and open ferment if you're courageous.

I agree that so4, simple grainbill, warm-side fermentation, balanced british hop character, and yeast ester production are the keys to a good ordinary bitter.  The only point I would like to mention is on ester production from yeast.

It's widely accepted in homebrewing that underpitching is supposed to promote ester production.  Contrary to this "common knowledge", Neva Parker from White Labs has mentioned a few times over the years that ester production is actually enhanced with higher pitching rates because the yeast compound Acetyl CoA is directed towards ester formation, instead of yeast growth.  After having played a few times with drastically low pitching rates in hopes of achieving significant ester formation in British beers, and failing to achieve my goal, I am under the impression that Neva may be correct (who'd a thunk it?).  Couple an elevated pitching rate with low-end aeration (shaking only) and I think you have a recipe for reasonable ester formation.

Neva's mention of this at discussion at NB a few years back: https://youtu.be/2vELwUsBmWQ?t=1110

As for recipes I've made, and been proud of:
85% MO
5% Wheat Malt
10% Invert #2
Fuggles @60 for 26ibu
Golding @15 for 7ibu
Golding @5 for 2 ibu
OG 1.047
IBU 35
Wyest 1187 (the scary old Ringwood ;) )
Neva's boss has said the opposite.

It depends on many things, but I have found for typical British ale yeasts under pitching gets the esters I want.
Jeff Rankert
Ann Arbor Brewers Guild
AHA Governing Committee
BJCP National
Home-brewing, not just a hobby, it is a lifestyle!

Offline brewinhard

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Re: British Ordinary Bitter critique & suggestions
« Reply #14 on: May 12, 2016, 05:12:44 PM »
Mark has mentioned that one way to get some of those necessary english ale strain esters is to pitch warm (73F or so) and slowly let cool to ferment temps (68F or so). I am trying this on my next one.