[HoosierBrew]

I agree that true caramelization won't happen in a long boil, but I don't think anybody would argue that more Maillard-type deep flavors can come from a 90 minute (or longer) boil. Scottish ales come to mind.

[wmsouthworth]

[quote
Well, they're free to publish what they want to....physics says that you need temps in excess of 360F to get caramelization and AFAIK you can't get that in a kettle of liquid.  The color changes are due to the Maillard reaction, the same reaction that produces caramelization.
[/quote]

Good Info to know, thanks.

[Hand of Dom]

[quote
Well, they're free to publish what they want to....physics says that you need temps in excess of 360F to get caramelization and AFAIK you can't get that in a kettle of liquid.  The color changes are due to the Maillard reaction, the same reaction that produces caramelization.

Good Info to know, thanks.
[/quote]

But it's not true.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caramelization

I'm not saying caramelization does occur during the boil, I'm just saying that the caramelization reaction is different from the maillard reaction, and can occur at lower temperatures than that quoted by Denny.  The reaction is also sensitive to pH and the presence of "impurities", so I wouldn't rule it out.

[denny]

[quote
Well, they're free to publish what they want to....physics says that you need temps in excess of 360F to get caramelization and AFAIK you can't get that in a kettle of liquid.  The color changes are due to the Maillard reaction, the same reaction that produces caramelization.

Good Info to know, thanks.

But it's not true.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caramelization

I'm not saying caramelization does occur during the boil, I'm just saying that the caramelization reaction is different from the maillard reaction, and can occur at lower temperatures than that quoted by Denny.  The reaction is also sensitive to pH and the presence of "impurities", so I wouldn't rule it out.
[/quote]

Your link says sucrose caramelizes at 320 and maltose around 360.

[Hand of Dom]

[quote
Well, they're free to publish what they want to....physics says that you need temps in excess of 360F to get caramelization and AFAIK you can't get that in a kettle of liquid.  The color changes are due to the Maillard reaction, the same reaction that produces caramelization.

Good Info to know, thanks.

But it's not true.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caramelization

I'm not saying caramelization does occur during the boil, I'm just saying that the caramelization reaction is different from the maillard reaction, and can occur at lower temperatures than that quoted by Denny.  The reaction is also sensitive to pH and the presence of "impurities", so I wouldn't rule it out.

Your link says sucrose caramelizes at 320 and maltose around 360.
[/quote]

The main point I was trying to make was that Caramelization reaction is not a Maillard reaction.  I agree that for the most part, you're not going to get caramelization going on in the boil for most worts, but do you not think that it's a possibility for people using brewers invert?