[wmsouthworth]

My wife wants me to brew something like Mirror Pond. Anybody have the actual recipe?  I did a google search and found many differing recipes. After tasting a fresh example I put together the recipe below. Any Thoughts? Maybe to much Munich?


Method: All Grain
Style: American Pale Ale   
Boil Time: 60 min
Batch Size: 6 gallons (ending kettle volume)
Boil Size: 7.5 gallons
Boil Gravity: 1.041 (recipe based estimate)
Efficiency: 60% (ending kettle)
Source: mixed

Original Gravity:
1.051
Final Gravity:
1.012
ABV (standard):
5.11%
IBU (tinseth):
40.83
SRM (morey):
8.38
Fermentables
Amount    Fermentable    PPG    °L    Bill %
11 lb   American - Pale 2-Row   37   1.8   79.3%
2 lb   German - Munich Dark   37   15.5   14.4%
6 oz   American - Caramel / Crystal 60L   34   60   2.7%
0.5 lb   American - Carapils (Dextrine Malt)   33   1.8   3.6%
13.88 lb    Total              
Hops
Amount    Variety    Type    AA    Use    Time    IBU
1 oz   Cascade   Pellet   7   Boil   60 min   24.08
1 oz   Cascade   Pellet   7   Boil   15 min   11.95
1 oz   Cascade   Pellet   7   Boil   5 min   4.8
2 oz   Cascade   Pellet   7   Boil   0 min   
1.25 oz   Cascade   Pellet   7   Dry Hop   7 days

[denny]

I'd got for Munich in the 10L range.  Otherwise pretty good.

[wmsouthworth]

I'd got for Munich in the 10L range.  Otherwise pretty good.

I think I will scale back the Munich a bit, I don't know what the SRM should be for this beer.

[Stevie]

CYBI/Jamil Show did mirror pond years ago. Don't know if it's any good, just remember seeing the show.

[Iliff Ave]

 Clones I have seen are a 90 minute boil with the bittering addition with 85 minutes remaining.

[wmsouthworth]

Clones I have seen are a 90 minute boil with the bittering addition with 85 minutes remaining.

I wonder why? I always assume long boils are for DMS reduction. Is it for caramelization?

[theDarkSide]

This is the recipe from the CYBI show, and I believe they labeled it successful.


Boil Size: 7.77 gal
Post Boil Volume: 7.02 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 6.00 gal   
Bottling Volume: 5.60 gal
Estimated OG: 1.055 SG
Estimated Color: 9.8 SRM
Estimated IBU: 33.6 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 78.7 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt                   Name                                     Type          #        %/IBU         
11 lbs 9.0 oz         Pale Malt, Maris Otter (3.0 SRM)         Grain         1        91.5 %       
14.0 oz               Caramel/Crystal Malt - 80L (80.0 SRM)    Grain         2        6.9 %         
3.2 oz                Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM)             Grain         3        1.6 %         
1.00 oz               Cascade [5.50 %] - Boil 85.0 min         Hop           4        20.1 IBUs     
1.00 oz               Cascade [5.50 %] - Boil 30.0 min         Hop           5        10.2 IBUs     
1.00 oz               Cascade [5.50 %] - Boil 5.0 min          Hop           6        3.3 IBUs     
1.00 oz               Cascade [5.50 %] - Boil 0.0 min          Hop           7        0.0 IBUs     
1.0 pkg               English Ale (White Labs #WLP002) [2000.0 Yeast         8        -             
1.00 oz               Cascade [5.50 %] - Dry Hop 3.0 Days      Hop           9        0.0 IBUs     


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Light Body, Batch Sparge
Total Grain Weight: 12 lbs 10.1 oz
----------------------------
Name              Description                             Step Temperat Step Time     
Mash In           Add 22.11 qt of water at 155.9 F        148.0 F       75 min       

Sparge: Batch sparge with 1 steps (4.01gal) of 168.0 F water
Notes:

[Iliff Ave]

^That is the one I have seen.

I have been wanting to brew it for some time but never got around to it.

Munich is shown on Deschutes website so I would probably sub in a pound or so in place of the pale malt.

[denny]

Clones I have seen are a 90 minute boil with the bittering addition with 85 minutes remaining.

That doesn't really matter. 

[denny]

Clones I have seen are a 90 minute boil with the bittering addition with 85 minutes remaining.

I wonder why? I always assume long boils are for DMS reduction. Is it for caramelization?

You cannot caramelize wort in a kettle. It doesn't get hot enough.

[denny]

^That is the one I have seen.

I have been wanting to brew it for some time but never got around to it.

Munich is shown on Deschutes website so I would probably sub in a pound or so in place of the pale malt.

Definitely needs around 15-20% Munich.

[Iliff Ave]

Clones I have seen are a 90 minute boil with the bittering addition with 85 minutes remaining.

That doesn't really matter.

It may not matter at all. That is what I have seen. They say a 90 minute boil on their website as well.

[wmsouthworth]

Clones I have seen are a 90 minute boil with the bittering addition with 85 minutes remaining.

I wonder why? I always assume long boils are for DMS reduction. Is it for caramelization?

You cannot caramelize wort in a kettle. It doesn't get hot enough.

From a BYO article "Wort Boiling:Homebrew Science"   

"Color development
Color pick-up in the kettle is a combination of several factors. The caramelization of wort sugars darkens the wort as it boils. Loss of an H2O molecule from the complex sugar molecule forms a double bond inside the sugar molecule, which changes the way the sugar molecule absorbs light, thereby affecting the color.  Drive off all water  and you’re left with carbon."

This is from a 2002 article. It does not say much about it. My personal experience is that caramelization is only noticeable if you boil most of the water out of the wort. But the article seems to say that it happens during a normal boil.  http://byo.com/malt/item/1650-wort-boiling-homebrew-science

[denny]

From a BYO article "Wort Boiling:Homebrew Science"   

"Color development
Color pick-up in the kettle is a combination of several factors. The caramelization of wort sugars darkens the wort as it boils. Loss of an H2O molecule from the complex sugar molecule forms a double bond inside the sugar molecule, which changes the way the sugar molecule absorbs light, thereby affecting the color.  Drive off all water  and you’re left with carbon."

This is from a 2002 article. It does not say much about it. My personal experience is that caramelization is only noticeable if you boil most of the water out of the wort. But the article seems to say that it happens during a normal boil.  http://byo.com/malt/item/1650-wort-boiling-homebrew-science

Well, they're free to publish what they want to....physics says that you need temps in excess of 360F to get caramelization and AFAIK you can't get that in a kettle of liquid.  The color changes are due to the Maillard reaction, the same reaction that produces caramelization.

[Hand of Dom]

From a BYO article "Wort Boiling:Homebrew Science"   

"Color development
Color pick-up in the kettle is a combination of several factors. The caramelization of wort sugars darkens the wort as it boils. Loss of an H2O molecule from the complex sugar molecule forms a double bond inside the sugar molecule, which changes the way the sugar molecule absorbs light, thereby affecting the color.  Drive off all water  and you’re left with carbon."

This is from a 2002 article. It does not say much about it. My personal experience is that caramelization is only noticeable if you boil most of the water out of the wort. But the article seems to say that it happens during a normal boil.  http://byo.com/malt/item/1650-wort-boiling-homebrew-science

Well, they're free to publish what they want to....physics says that you need temps in excess of 360F to get caramelization and AFAIK you can't get that in a kettle of liquid.  The color changes are due to the Maillard reaction, the same reaction that produces caramelization.

It was my understanding that Maillard and caramelization reactions are different.  Maillard requires amino acids and reducing sugars, and caramelization only sugar.  Fructose will caramelize at 110c, other sugars at higher temps.