[dilluh98]

They chuckle at oxygen in beer making and packaging? If so they certainly aren't who they say they are. It's in every professional brewing text!

I agree. I've had too many beers from local breweries lately who haven't dialed in their new canning process. Their beer is often good at the brewery but, lord, their canned product is just muddled/muted and often darker in color. If this doesn't point to oxygen ingress during their packaging step, I don't know what does.

[The Beerery]

They chuckle at oxygen in beer making and packaging? If so they certainly aren't who they say they are. It's in every professional brewing text!

they chuckle at the thought of using meta in a medium with a ph in the 4's and 5's and the belief that beverage grade co2 oxidizes beer.

I am all ears if you can find a cheaper and better way to ward off hot side oxidation with out it. As it has ALWAYS been said meta is a band aid for us small brewers.

Excerps about co2
"On another note, there was some discussion on the grade/quality of CO2. I have researched this extensively as I have struggled with this in the past. The following CO2 grades are available in Europe and the US and are all considered 'food grade'. Below I have provided ppm levels of o2 in the gas and what the resultant ppb levels of DO would be in the carbonated beer (assuming an added 1 vol of co2 with the respective gas).

gas / region / o2 impurity level / resultant DO level in beer

CO2 3.0 / EU / <200 ppm / <286 ppb
CO2 4.5 / EU / <15 ppm / <21 ppb
CO2 4.8 / EU / <2 ppm / <3 ppb
CO2 (beverage grade) / US / <30 ppm / <43 ppb

(Those ppm levels are the upper spec limits and so actual levels will be lower.)

As you can see these are not meaningless amounts, specially when we are aiming for less than 150 ppb total packaged DO. I have been buying CO2 4.8 here in Europe as it is no more expensive than the lower grades."

"I was waiting to post this until I tapped the second keg of my first lodo batch, but since the topic of oxidation with force carbing has come up, i'll post about my recent experience.

My first lodo helles batch made about 12 gallons, split across 3 kegs. Unfortunately I was only able to carbonate to about 2 volumes due spunding valve leaks and crap hydrometers. For serving I went ahead and hooked it up to my standard 10-12 psi and thus gave it the extra 0.5 vols or so. Well its been a little over a month and the sweet grainy flavor that was initially very prominent is 100% gone and has been replaced by a flavor reminiscent of white wine (although not to the same extent as my usual 100% force carbonated beers).

The remaining 2 kegs haven't seen any force carbonation yet so it'll be interesting when i tap them to see if they still have the sweet grainy flavor and if they also diminish with time."

"As much as I don't want to believe that force carbonation is the devil, I guess it is. This will be problematic for folks that ferment in containers that can't hold pressure and don't have free time mid fermentation (which is usually mid week as well) to rack to a keg. Is bottle conditioning the answer to the busy brewer's dilemma?

From what I've read, it also sounds like bottling from the keg results in this loss of flavor, even when using what has generally been thought of as good tools and good procedure. This is unfortunate as I bottle a lot of beer for competitions well in advance of the competition date."

"http://m.co2meter.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.co2meter.com%2Fblogs%2Fnews%2F16831989-why-the-grade-of-co2-gas-you-are-using-is-important&utm_referrer=#2730"

If you would like I have the calcs the prove it, I am sure I could find them.

[narcout]

And keep in mind if these are larger sized breweries, then by default they are already low - dissolved oxygen brewing due to their larger wort production.

Though I wonder if their larger scale is moot if they aren't using de-oxygenated water for mashing.

[Stevie]

And keep in mind if these are larger sized breweries, then by default they are already low - dissolved oxygen brewing due to their larger wort production.

Though I wonder if their larger scale is moot if they aren't using de-oxygenated water for mashing.

Same

[The Beerery]

Yea if they are not processing their water in one way shape or form, then it is moot. Cause there is more DO in tap water at strike temps then allowed.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[brewinhard]

They chuckle at oxygen in beer making and packaging? If so they certainly aren't who they say they are. It's in every professional brewing text!

they chuckle at the thought of using meta in a medium with a ph in the 4's and 5's and the belief that beverage grade co2 oxidizes beer.

I am all ears if you can find a cheaper and better way to ward off hot side oxidation with out it. As it has ALWAYS been said meta is a band aid for us small brewers.

Excerps about co2
"On another note, there was some discussion on the grade/quality of CO2. I have researched this extensively as I have struggled with this in the past. The following CO2 grades are available in Europe and the US and are all considered 'food grade'. Below I have provided ppm levels of o2 in the gas and what the resultant ppb levels of DO would be in the carbonated beer (assuming an added 1 vol of co2 with the respective gas).

gas / region / o2 impurity level / resultant DO level in beer

CO2 3.0 / EU / <200 ppm / <286 ppb
CO2 4.5 / EU / <15 ppm / <21 ppb
CO2 4.8 / EU / <2 ppm / <3 ppb
CO2 (beverage grade) / US / <30 ppm / <43 ppb

(Those ppm levels are the upper spec limits and so actual levels will be lower.)

As you can see these are not meaningless amounts, specially when we are aiming for less than 150 ppb total packaged DO. I have been buying CO2 4.8 here in Europe as it is no more expensive than the lower grades."

"I was waiting to post this until I tapped the second keg of my first lodo batch, but since the topic of oxidation with force carbing has come up, i'll post about my recent experience.

My first lodo helles batch made about 12 gallons, split across 3 kegs. Unfortunately I was only able to carbonate to about 2 volumes due spunding valve leaks and crap hydrometers. For serving I went ahead and hooked it up to my standard 10-12 psi and thus gave it the extra 0.5 vols or so. Well its been a little over a month and the sweet grainy flavor that was initially very prominent is 100% gone and has been replaced by a flavor reminiscent of white wine (although not to the same extent as my usual 100% force carbonated beers).

The remaining 2 kegs haven't seen any force carbonation yet so it'll be interesting when i tap them to see if they still have the sweet grainy flavor and if they also diminish with time."

"As much as I don't want to believe that force carbonation is the devil, I guess it is. This will be problematic for folks that ferment in containers that can't hold pressure and don't have free time mid fermentation (which is usually mid week as well) to rack to a keg. Is bottle conditioning the answer to the busy brewer's dilemma?

From what I've read, it also sounds like bottling from the keg results in this loss of flavor, even when using what has generally been thought of as good tools and good procedure. This is unfortunate as I bottle a lot of beer for competitions well in advance of the competition date."

"http://m.co2meter.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.co2meter.com%2Fblogs%2Fnews%2F16831989-why-the-grade-of-co2-gas-you-are-using-is-important&utm_referrer=#2730"

If you would like I have the calcs the prove it, I am sure I could find them.

So, after reading this, and checking out the link, should we all be shooting to use beverage grade CO2 as our best shot at getting the highest quality carbon dioxide?

[bayareabrewer]

is meta even effective as an anti oxidant at the higher ph that beer sits at?

[The Beerery]

Yea. If the beer is naturally carbed, and then co2 used as push only it should be good for 6-7 months before flavor will start to fade.

[The Beerery]

is meta even effective as an anti oxidant at the higher ph that beer sits at?

Of course it is.

[bayareabrewer]

is meta even effective as an anti oxidant at the higher ph that beer sits at?

Of course it is.

you sure?

http://www.moundtop.com/pdf/Winemaking-SO2.pdf

[The Beerery]

is meta even effective as an anti oxidant at the higher ph that beer sits at?

Of course it is.

you sure?



http://www.moundtop.com/pdf/Winemaking-SO2.pdf



110%

[bayareabrewer]

I know I just cited a wine making pdf on a beer forum, but I have yet to hear you discuss the ph in which you are using meta, and the long documented and extensively researched conclusions that wine makers have drawn-which is that meta in ineffective as an antixodant at ph's above 4.

[The Beerery]

I know I just cited a wine making pdf on a beer forum, but I have yet to hear you discuss the ph in which you are using meta, and the long documented and extensively researched conclusions that wine makers have drawn-which is that meta in ineffective as an antixodant at ph's above 4.

Wine is not beer. I will leave this for you to peruse( specifically the antioxidant section):
http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/uncategorized/list-of-brewing-references/

[bayareabrewer]

I know I just cited a wine making pdf on a beer forum, but I have yet to hear you discuss the ph in which you are using meta, and the long documented and extensively researched conclusions that wine makers have drawn-which is that meta in ineffective as an antixodant at ph's above 4.

Wine is not beer. I will leave this for you to peruse( specifically the antioxidant section):
http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/uncategorized/list-of-brewing-references/

are you using yourself as a source?

[bayareabrewer]

winemakers have about a trillion times more experience working with meta. I'm not talking wine here, just meta. And their research indicates it is not an effective antioxidant at the ph range that most beers fall into.