[The Beerery]

Your ignorance is showing. I left you with the links and info.

[bayareabrewer]

Your ignorance is showing. I left you with the links and info.

well, this certainly isn't nice. I challenged your ascertain that meta is an effective antioxidant in beer and gave you a well written, independent and reputable source for that belief. you called me ignorant and used yourself as a source for your belief to the contrary.

[The Beerery]

Hah, you continue to prove you didn't even click on the link. That link is FULL of research papers and brewing literature.
After you get done ACTUALLY clicking the link to find the answers you seek. Call bsg and tell them they are selling bunk products to professional brewers.


Taken directly from my grain room.


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[bayareabrewer]

SO, what you're telling me is that hundreds of years of research, that all came to the conclusion that meta is not effective as an antioxidant at higher ph's values is incorrect?

[lupulus]

SO, what you're telling me is that hundreds of years of research, that all came to the conclusion that meta is not effective as an antioxidant at higher ph's values is incorrect?

@bayareabrewer
I, for one, would like to read all the articles that you mention. I am really interested.
Science is always changing but the state of the art knowledge in the beer world is that if added to beer, sulfites would prevent oxidation, but brewers are so far reluctant to add them to beer so we can only refer to the literature. For example, Bamforth talks about it in the Flavor Stability chapter in Beer, a quality perspective.

[bayareabrewer]

SO, what you're telling me is that hundreds of years of research, that all came to the conclusion that meta is not effective as an antioxidant at higher ph's values is incorrect?

@bayareabrewer
I, for one, would like to read all the articles that you mention. I am really interested.
Science is always changing but the state of the art knowledge in the beer world is that if added to beer, sulfites would prevent oxidation, but brewers are so far reluctant to add them to beer so we can only refer to the literature. For example, Bamforth talks about it in the Flavor Stability chapter in Beer, a quality perspective.

https://winemakermag.com/634-solving-the-sulfite-puzzle

http://vinovation.com/ArticleWinepH2.htm

http://www.practicalwinery.com/janfeb09/page4.htm

https://beerbrew.com/words/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/SO2science.pdf

http://morewinemaking.com/public/pdf/so2.pdf

here's a few. This was just from a google search. Give me a little more time and I could find about a billion more. Winemakers know meta like the back of their hands, they've been using it forever. It's common accepted and proven that meta is not an effective antioxidant at higher ph's.

[HoosierBrew]

I have to assume the wine industry didn't write  http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/Sulfites-in-beer-reviewing-regulation-analysis-and-role.pdf  as well. As mentioned, Charlie Bamforth is pretty universally respected in modern day brewing science and concurs with this. Knowledge progresses with time. I'm blown away at the changes I've seen in homebrewing info alone since '93.

[Big Monk]

SO, what you're telling me is that hundreds of years of research, that all came to the conclusion that meta is not effective as an antioxidant at higher ph's values is incorrect?

@bayareabrewer
I, for one, would like to read all the articles that you mention. I am really interested.
Science is always changing but the state of the art knowledge in the beer world is that if added to beer, sulfites would prevent oxidation, but brewers are so far reluctant to add them to beer so we can only refer to the literature. For example, Bamforth talks about it in the Flavor Stability chapter in Beer, a quality perspective.

https://winemakermag.com/634-solving-the-sulfite-puzzle

http://vinovation.com/ArticleWinepH2.htm

http://www.practicalwinery.com/janfeb09/page4.htm

https://beerbrew.com/words/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/SO2science.pdf

http://morewinemaking.com/public/pdf/so2.pdf

here's a few. This was just from a google search. Give me a little more time and I could find about a billion more. Winemakers know meta like the back of their hands, they've been using it forever. It's common accepted and proven that meta is not an effective antioxidant at higher ph's.

While what you posted is interesting, Bryan, along with others, have shown empirically through dissolved oxygen readings of all phases of the brewing process, that NaMeta without a doubt acts as an oxygen scavenger and an active protector against oxygen ingress.

[mabrungard]

It's common accepted and proven that meta is not an effective antioxidant at higher ph's.

Typical pH difference between wine and beer is about 1 SU. Is that really enough to render meta ineffective? I will concede that the difference may render it less effective.

[lupulus]

SO, what you're telling me is that hundreds of years of research, that all came to the conclusion that meta is not effective as an antioxidant at higher ph's values is incorrect?

@bayareabrewer
I, for one, would like to read all the articles that you mention. I am really interested.
Science is always changing but the state of the art knowledge in the beer world is that if added to beer, sulfites would prevent oxidation, but brewers are so far reluctant to add them to beer so we can only refer to the literature. For example, Bamforth talks about it in the Flavor Stability chapter in Beer, a quality perspective.

https://winemakermag.com/634-solving-the-sulfite-puzzle

http://vinovation.com/ArticleWinepH2.htm

http://www.practicalwinery.com/janfeb09/page4.htm

https://beerbrew.com/words/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/SO2science.pdf

http://morewinemaking.com/public/pdf/so2.pdf

here's a few. This was just from a google search. Give me a little more time and I could find about a billion more. Winemakers know meta like the back of their hands, they've been using it forever. It's common accepted and proven that meta is not an effective antioxidant at higher ph's.

Thanks so much! So, the point these articles make is that according to the SO2 dissociation pK, almost all of the SO2 is present as a bisulfite ion HSO3- at beer pH (4 to 4.5). Given I have not read any wine research at all, I concede that for wine you may need at least some SO2 to be present as sulfur dioxide.
It is a big leap however to state that this concept applies as-is to fermented beer or to beer wort. There are many research papers that directly or indirectly suggest a positive role for sulfites affecting the formation of staling compounds, and no paper I know of that has demonstrated the contrary (ie, sulfites having no effect on beer oxidation).
If you find literature demonstrating that the same effect applies to beer, please let us know.
Cheers :-)

[beersk]

Hah, you continue to prove you didn't even click on the link. That link is FULL of research papers and brewing literature.
After you get done ACTUALLY clicking the link to find the answers you seek. Call bsg and tell them they are selling bunk products to professional brewers.


Taken directly from my grain room.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Well, doesn't BSG sell pH stabilizer 5.2? That is a bunk product. 

But, that aside, we're using the NaMeta in a mash pH range of 5.1-5.4 for the bulk of its protection anyway. The other protection is kegging with extract left and naturally carbonating. So whether NaMeta is effective in the pH range of 4-4.5 is a moot point. Is it not?

[bboy9000]

Let's calm down a bit.  Remember, we are all brothers and sisters of the brewing community.  We don't need to be calling each other names. Claiming someone is ignorant is unfair, as in most scientific fields, one can find studies that confirm multiple hypotheses.  Things stated here are not always scientific laws, just the latest findings that may change either way with further research .  Also, much of the research regarding hot-side oxidation aren't readily available to homebrewers- and even then- the texts cost hundreds of dollars, so the claim of ignorance isn't necessary.  How can one ignore something that isn't readily available to make the person aware of it in the first place?  For me it is frustrating that sources on the effects of HSO-or other brewing science-isn't easily accessible.  That's the bad thing about science done by people  concerned about profit or industry and not public education.

As far as post fermentation oxidation,  I think pro and amateur brewers acknowledge that is real so we don't even need to argue about that. Most of us have experienced bad canning or a bottle that have been on the shelf for too long and that research is easily accessible.

Finally, what one considers the superior style is irrelevant as we all have our personal preferences. I used to love the west-coast IPA, got burned out and started drinking and appreciating a good helles.  Now after brewing a wedding IPA for my lovely wife and spending a nice honeymoon in SoCal, I can't get enough west-coast IPA.  As my Dad always says, "Opinions are like a$$holes.  Everybody has one and they all stink."  Just RDWHAHB and enjoy your helles or IPA or mild or whatever and enjoy the discussion.

EDIT:  Bryan, I wasn't trying to pick on you for claiming someone is ignorant. Anyone following these discussions knows you've taken your share of unnecessary flak.  I appreciate the perspective you have to offer as well as the perspectives of everyone on here.

[dilluh98]

At final beer pH (let's say 3.8-4.4 to be generous), much of the SO2 will be in the form of bisulfite (HSO3-) via the equilibrium of SO2 + H2O <--> HSO3- + H+. The lower end of that pH range will have more of the SO2 form and the higher end of that range will be predominantly HSO3-. The important point here though is that this is an equilibrium (double headed arrows) and thus HSO3- can be thought of as a reserve for SO2. As the SO2 is consumed the equilibrium will produce more of it from HSO3-. Some algebraic manipulation of simple acid-dissociation reaction equations yields:

[SO2"available"]/[SO3-2] = 1 + 10^(7.2 - pH).

At pH 4.5 this would give a ratio of ~ 500:1 of "available" SO2 : sulfite (SO3-2).


Bisulfite itself (HSO3-) is also an antioxidant, I think.

[Big Monk]

5 ppm of NaMeta will protect against 1 ppm of O2, leaving behind a certain amount of Na and SO4 in the process.

It doesn't have to be anymore complicated than that.


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[The Beerery]

Let's calm down a bit.  Remember, we are all brothers and sisters of the brewing community.  We don't need to be calling each other names. Claiming someone is ignorant is unfair, as in most scientific fields, one can find studies that confirm multiple hypotheses.  Things stated here are not always scientific laws, just the latest findings that may change either way with further research .  Also, much of the research regarding hot-side oxidation aren't readily available to homebrewers- and even then- the texts cost hundreds of dollars, so the claim of ignorance isn't necessary.  How can one ignore something that isn't readily available to make the person aware of it in the first place?  For me it is frustrating that sources on the effects of HSO-or other brewing science-isn't easily accessible.  That's the bad thing about science done by people  concerned about profit or industry and not public education.

As far as post fermentation oxidation,  I think pro and amateur brewers acknowledge that is real so we don't even need to argue about that. Most of us have experienced bad canning or a bottle that have been on the shelf for too long and that research is easily accessible.

Finally, what one considers the superior style is irrelevant as we all have our personal preferences. I used to love the west-coast IPA, got burned out and started drinking and appreciating a good helles.  Now after brewing a wedding IPA for my lovely wife and spending a nice honeymoon in SoCal, I can't get enough west-coast IPA.  As my Dad always says, "Opinions are like a$$holes.  Everybody has one and they all stink."  Just RDWHAHB and enjoy your helles or IPA or mild or whatever and enjoy the discussion.

EDIT:  Bryan, I wasn't trying to pick on you for claiming someone is ignorant. Anyone following these discussions knows you've taken your share of unnecessary flak.  I appreciate the perspective you have to offer as well as the perspectives of everyone on here.

I called him ignorant because I provided a link with all the necessary information he requested, but refused to simply click on the link and look. It doesn't get easier than that.