[The Beerery]

Absolutely. None of the flavors I used to get from black malts exist anymore( burnt, harsh, ashy,etc). However it is much more intense, but fresh and clean.

I like hearing this, but what about a beer like my upcoming Dunkel where there is the small color adjustment with Carafa - ie., a beer where you don't want the roast intensified even if it's more pleasant? I just want to hit color accurately without extra roast in a beer like this. Am I overthinking on such a small addition?

Carafa Special or Sinamar will give you color without much roast flavor. 150g Carafa Special II should do for a Dunkel in a 5 gallon batch. You will not see any roasted flavor from this addition in a LODO beer. I am also adding color with 150g of Caramunich II. Beer got a 44 in a German beer comp and placed 2nd.

Personally I use regular carafa II. I like the chocolaty flavor with a little bit of roast. 2% in a Schwarz, is very noticeable, but very nice.

[HoosierBrew]

Absolutely. None of the flavors I used to get from black malts exist anymore( burnt, harsh, ashy,etc). However it is much more intense, but fresh and clean.

I like hearing this, but what about a beer like my upcoming Dunkel where there is the small color adjustment with Carafa - ie., a beer where you don't want the roast intensified even if it's more pleasant? I just want to hit color accurately without extra roast in a beer like this. Am I overthinking on such a small addition?

You will taste the flavor contribution, even at 1%, but its perfectly acceptable for the style. If you look at the dunkel recipes on the last page of chapter 2, all have 1%.

Cool. I get that it's ok for the style in a subtle way. Not having used roast grains in a lodo, it's hard to mentally quantify the jump in roast character. Guess it's just time to brew the damn thing. I trust the recipe source 

[HoosierBrew]

Carafa Special or Sinamar will give you color without much roast flavor. 150g Carafa Special II should do for a Dunkel in a 5 gallon batch. You will not see any roasted flavor from this addition in a LODO beer. I am also adding color with 150g of Caramunich II. Beer got a 44 in a German beer comp and placed 2nd.

Thanks for the tip. I've used the Carafa grains many times, just not in the lodo setting. Sometimes there's no substitute for just brewing to see what I think for myself. Sounds like a killer Dunkel.

[The Beerery]

Absolutely. None of the flavors I used to get from black malts exist anymore( burnt, harsh, ashy,etc). However it is much more intense, but fresh and clean.

I like hearing this, but what about a beer like my upcoming Dunkel where there is the small color adjustment with Carafa - ie., a beer where you don't want the roast intensified even if it's more pleasant? I just want to hit color accurately without extra roast in a beer like this. Am I overthinking on such a small addition?

You will taste the flavor contribution, even at 1%, but its perfectly acceptable for the style. If you look at the dunkel recipes on the last page of chapter 2, all have 1%.

Cool. I get that it's ok for the style in a subtle way. Not having used roast grains in a lodo, it's hard to mentally quantify the jump in roast character. Guess it's just time to brew the damn thing. I trust the recipe source 

The carafaII is going to more chocolaty then anything. Giver her a whirl!

[bjanat]

I tried to make a split batch schwarzbier to compare Lodo and normal. I used yeast+sugar in 40C strike water, then 50mg/l SMB in hot water to raise to 62C. But since I didn't have time for starters, I went with Mangrove Jack's M76 Bavarian Lager at 8C, but spent two weeks with almost no fermentation. Everything by the book and big healthy pitch and a minute of O2. So I mixed the two into one carboy, SG 1040, and left it at 13-14C and it got going. The experiment is no good, just hope it's drinkable. Not using Mangrove Jack's again.

5% Carafa 3S, BTW, but cold steeped.




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[The Beerery]

I tried to make a split batch schwarzbier to compare Lodo and normal. I used yeast+sugar in 40C strike water, then 50mg/l SMB in hot water to raise to 62C. But since I didn't have time for starters, I went with Mangrove Jack's M76 Bavarian Lager at 8C, but spent two weeks with almost no fermentation. Everything by the book and big healthy pitch and a minute of O2. So I mixed the two into one carboy, SG 1040, and left it at 13-14C and it got going. The experiment is no good, just hope it's drinkable. Not using Mangrove Jack's again.

5% Carafa 3S, BTW, but cold steeped.




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Ugg that sucks!  I had horrible luck with all the dry lager yeasts. On a side note if I don't have activity in 8 hours now a days, I dump it and start over. Too much flavor loss.

[denny]

In summary, isn't this technique a technique designed to minimize oxidation of the dark grains? Wouldn't LODO brewing allow the addition of the dark grains together with the rest of the grains, while avoiding the oxidation effects or an early addition in a normal mash?

Thoughts? Comments?

No.  It's designed to make it so you don't have to take their effect pH into account.

[Big Monk]

In summary, isn't this technique a technique designed to minimize oxidation of the dark grains? Wouldn't LODO brewing allow the addition of the dark grains together with the rest of the grains, while avoiding the oxidation effects or an early addition in a normal mash?

Thoughts? Comments?

No.  It's designed to make it so you don't have to take their effect pH into account.

There is a flavor component as well.

[denny]

No.  It's designed to make it so you don't have to take their effect pH into account.

There is a flavor component as well.
[/quote]

Of course, but Gordon's reason for doing it is pH.

[lupulus]

In summary, isn't this technique a technique designed to minimize oxidation of the dark grains? Wouldn't LODO brewing allow the addition of the dark grains together with the rest of the grains, while avoiding the oxidation effects or an early addition in a normal mash?

Thoughts? Comments?

No.  It's designed to make it so you don't have to take their effect pH into account.

Apologies for being slow, Denny. Are you saying that the reason that Gordon has stated in books/ podcasts that the dark grains at vorlauf is to modify pH?

[lupulus]

In summary, isn't this technique a technique designed to minimize oxidation of the dark grains? Wouldn't LODO brewing allow the addition of the dark grains together with the rest of the grains, while avoiding the oxidation effects or an early addition in a normal mash?

Thoughts? Comments?

No.  It's designed to make it so you don't have to take their effect pH into account.

Apologies for being slow, Denny. Are you saying that the reason that Gordon has stated in books/ podcasts that the dark grains at vorlauf is to modify pH?

In Brewing Better Beer p43-44, Gordon only state flavor reasons for adding dark grains at vorlauf. I never recall him mentioning pH as a reason. I think we can all agree that adding dark grains at vorlauf will lower pH, but this a consequence of the method not the reason for doing it.  In fact, for those mashing at 5.2, a large dark grain addition at vorlauf may lower boil pH too much, affecting hop utilization and other processes during the boil, so for those not sparging (which will counteract to some extent the pH lowering effect of the dark grains), it may be easier to start with the dark grains at the beginning of the mash to avoid lowering pH at the end (by adding the dark grains). Another possibility is to counteract the pH effect of the dark grains at vorlauf with a pinch of calcium hydroxide, but one will have to take pH readings until this process is fine-tuned.

[denny]

In summary, isn't this technique a technique designed to minimize oxidation of the dark grains? Wouldn't LODO brewing allow the addition of the dark grains together with the rest of the grains, while avoiding the oxidation effects or an early addition in a normal mash?

Thoughts? Comments?

No.  It's designed to make it so you don't have to take their effect pH into account.

Apologies for being slow, Denny. Are you saying that the reason that Gordon has stated in books/ podcasts that the dark grains at vorlauf is to modify pH?

In a conversation with him, he told me he started doing it to avoid having to deal with their affect on pH earlier in the mash.

[Big Monk]

That's interesting. What I've seen from Malts with higher distilled pH is that even with a sufficient input into our water section of roasted Malts (upwards of 7%), pH still needs to be adjusted down with acid to reach a target of 5.2.

For most I guess it would be a flavor decision rather than pH.


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[pkrone]

I tried to make a split batch schwarzbier to compare Lodo and normal. I used yeast+sugar in 40C strike water, then 50mg/l SMB in hot water to raise to 62C. But since I didn't have time for starters, I went with Mangrove Jack's M76 Bavarian Lager at 8C, but spent two weeks with almost no fermentation. Everything by the book and big healthy pitch and a minute of O2. So I mixed the two into one carboy, SG 1040, and left it at 13-14C and it got going. The experiment is no good, just hope it's drinkable. Not using Mangrove Jack's again.

5% Carafa 3S, BTW, but cold steeped.




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Ugg that sucks!  I had horrible luck with all the dry lager yeasts. On a side note if I don't have activity in 8 hours now a days, I dump it and start over. Too much flavor loss.

I've had excellent results with S-23.   It's been a strong fermentor for me with great attenuation. 

[beersk]

I tried to make a split batch schwarzbier to compare Lodo and normal. I used yeast+sugar in 40C strike water, then 50mg/l SMB in hot water to raise to 62C. But since I didn't have time for starters, I went with Mangrove Jack's M76 Bavarian Lager at 8C, but spent two weeks with almost no fermentation. Everything by the book and big healthy pitch and a minute of O2. So I mixed the two into one carboy, SG 1040, and left it at 13-14C and it got going. The experiment is no good, just hope it's drinkable. Not using Mangrove Jack's again.

5% Carafa 3S, BTW, but cold steeped.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Ugg that sucks!  I had horrible luck with all the dry lager yeasts. On a side note if I don't have activity in 8 hours now a days, I dump it and start over. Too much flavor loss.

Wow, now that I just couldn't do! I almost never have activity that fast unless I pitch like 12oz of THICK slurry that was harvested day-of brew session. And I don't get that opportunity often enough.