[natebriscoe]

So finally made time to brew up a  low o2 stout. My initial tasting after the mash and post boil was a very smooth roast and a pretty pronounced coffee flavor. This was 1.5lb roast malt (50/50 chocolate/ black barley) in a 5 gallon batch. Will have to wait and see how it finishes, but at this point I might even consider using a bit more roast malt.

[HoosierBrew]

So finally made time to brew up a  low o2 stout. My initial tasting after the mash and post boil was a very smooth roast and a pretty pronounced coffee flavor. This was 1.5lb roast malt (50/50 chocolate/ black barley) in a 5 gallon batch. Will have to wait and see how it finishes, but at this point I might even consider using a bit more roast malt.

Good to hear. 1.5 lb total is pretty subtantial. I'm really curious to see how my stout comes out in that format. I think I'll just brew the recipe as is and change next time if need be.

[HoosierBrew]

So finally made time to brew up a  low o2 stout. My initial tasting after the mash and post boil was a very smooth roast and a pretty pronounced coffee flavor. This was 1.5lb roast malt (50/50 chocolate/ black barley) in a 5 gallon batch. Will have to wait and see how it finishes, but at this point I might even consider using a bit more roast malt.

What mash pH did you use, out of curiosity?

[natebriscoe]

So finally made time to brew up a  low o2 stout. My initial tasting after the mash and post boil was a very smooth roast and a pretty pronounced coffee flavor. This was 1.5lb roast malt (50/50 chocolate/ black barley) in a 5 gallon batch. Will have to wait and see how it finishes, but at this point I might even consider using a bit more roast malt.

What mash pH did you use, out of curiosity?

Ended up at 5.4. Was shooting for closer to 5.5, But I will take it.

[stpug]

So if roast flavors are more intense in a LODO beer, which approach is going to be better for moderating them?

1. Reducing the quantities of your standard roast grains, or
2. Using roast grains that have lower color rating?

My opinion of course: The couple beers I've brewed that have used scant amounts of toasted malts (3 oz per 5 gallon range) have come out with significant amounts of toasted-malt characteristics, so subbing out for a lower colored malt doesn't seem like a complete solution to me - I think I'd end up with equal amounts of toast quality but that has a different characteristic.  Reducing how much is used seems to the best bet for me but I sacrifice color, which is tough for some beers.

I'm of the opinion that we may needs to use some form of hybrid mashing schedule for many beers.  Basically, a low O2 mash for base and crystal, alongside a normal O2 mash/steep of toast/roast character malts where those characters can "reduce" (more like "transform") in the presence of oxygen, to be incorporated into the boil at the appropriate time.  May be an O2-rich environment during the steeping/mashing of the dark malts, followed by removing them, boiling the resulting wort, and finally dosing it with NaMeta just prior to adding to the main wort.  Just something I've been thinking about because I don't think the character I'm getting from the toasted malts I use (victory, biscuit, amber, etc) are totally appropriate for the beers I'm using them it - whereas, prior to minimizing O2 uptake, they were appropriate.

[ynotbrusum]

I just made a Czech Dark Lager with slightly-modified LODO on my system (pre-boil, add SMB and BTB to cooled strike water, SMB to pre-boiled and cooled sparge with below wort introduction of sparge water - because my mash tun isn't large enough to do a no-sparge mash on my 10 gallon batches).  I am looking forward to checking the roast levels in the finished product - I used Carafa II, IIRC (added ala Gordon Strong at the vorlauf).

[pkrone]

Tasted my LoDo dry stout I made a while back.  I've made this recipe a bunch (it's a Northern Brewer kit).  I liked the ones I'd made in the past, but always wished for a bit more roastiness.   Well,  the LoDo has a lot more roasty flavor.   I'm pleased. 

[brewinhard]

Tasted my LoDo dry stout I made a while back.  I've made this recipe a bunch (it's a Northern Brewer kit).  I liked the ones I'd made in the past, but always wished for a bit more roastiness.   Well,  the LoDo has a lot more roasty flavor.   I'm pleased.

I am assuming no recipe adjustments for that stout?  Brewed as is?

[pkrone]

Tasted my LoDo dry stout I made a while back.  I've made this recipe a bunch (it's a Northern Brewer kit).  I liked the ones I'd made in the past, but always wished for a bit more roastiness.   Well,  the LoDo has a lot more roasty flavor.   I'm pleased.

I am assuming no recipe adjustments for that stout?  Brewed as is?

Yep, same recipe exactly.   Turned out awesome.   

[HoosierBrew]

Tasted my LoDo dry stout I made a while back.  I've made this recipe a bunch (it's a Northern Brewer kit).  I liked the ones I'd made in the past, but always wished for a bit more roastiness.   Well,  the LoDo has a lot more roasty flavor.   I'm pleased.

I am assuming no recipe adjustments for that stout?  Brewed as is?

Yep, same recipe exactly.   Turned out awesome.   

Good to know. I'm not gonna make any changes to porters or stouts. I'm thinking I'll use sinamar on beers where I just want the color adjustment rather than get roast character that I don't want in some beers.

[lupulus]

I am a bit late to this topic... I reviewed the thread but have not found a similar comment so apologies if this was mentioned/ discussed.

Martin's hypothesis (see page 1) that beer with dark grains may not benefit from LODO is counterintuitive to me.
One independent observation that supports the opposite argument is the one made famous by Gordon Strong that dark beers benefit greatly by adding the dark grains (roasted, dark caramels) at vorlauf. Gordon likes to make the analogy of "burnt" coffee effect for dark grains added at the beginning of the mash; and as far as I understand, the "burnt" coffee effect is an oxidation effect.

In summary, isn't this technique a technique designed to minimize oxidation of the dark grains? Wouldn't LODO brewing allow the addition of the dark grains together with the rest of the grains, while avoiding the oxidation effects or an early addition in a normal mash?

Thoughts? Comments?

[The Beerery]

I am a bit late to this topic... I reviewed the thread but have not found a similar comment so apologies if this was mentioned/ discussed.

Martin's hypothesis (see page 1) that beer with dark grains may not benefit from LODO is counterintuitive to me.
One independent observation that supports the opposite argument is the one made famous by Gordon Strong that dark beers benefit greatly by adding the dark grains (roasted, dark caramels) at vorlauf. Gordon likes to make the analogy of "burnt" coffee effect for dark grains added at the beginning of the mash; and as far as I understand, the "burnt" coffee effect is an oxidation effect.

In summary, isn't this technique a technique designed to minimize oxidation of the dark grains? Wouldn't LODO brewing allow the addition of the dark grains together with the rest of the grains, while avoiding the oxidation effects or an early addition in a normal mash?

Thoughts? Comments?

Absolutely. None of the flavors I used to get from black malts exist anymore( burnt, harsh, ashy,etc). However it is much more intense, but fresh and clean.

[HoosierBrew]

Absolutely. None of the flavors I used to get from black malts exist anymore( burnt, harsh, ashy,etc). However it is much more intense, but fresh and clean.

I like hearing this, but what about a beer like my upcoming Dunkel where there is the small color adjustment with Carafa - ie., a beer where you don't want the roast intensified even if it's more pleasant? I just want to hit color accurately without extra roast in a beer like this. Am I overthinking on such a small addition?

[The Beerery]

Absolutely. None of the flavors I used to get from black malts exist anymore( burnt, harsh, ashy,etc). However it is much more intense, but fresh and clean.

I like hearing this, but what about a beer like my upcoming Dunkel where there is the small color adjustment with Carafa - ie., a beer where you don't want the roast intensified even if it's more pleasant? I just want to hit color accurately without extra roast in a beer like this. Am I overthinking on such a small addition?

You will taste the flavor contribution, even at 1%, but its perfectly acceptable for the style. If you look at the dunkel recipes on the last page of chapter 2, all have 1%.

[lupulus]

Absolutely. None of the flavors I used to get from black malts exist anymore( burnt, harsh, ashy,etc). However it is much more intense, but fresh and clean.

I like hearing this, but what about a beer like my upcoming Dunkel where there is the small color adjustment with Carafa - ie., a beer where you don't want the roast intensified even if it's more pleasant? I just want to hit color accurately without extra roast in a beer like this. Am I overthinking on such a small addition?

Carafa Special or Sinamar will give you color without much roast flavor. 150g Carafa Special II should do for a Dunkel in a 5 gallon batch. You will not see any roasted flavor from this addition in a LODO beer. I am also adding color with 150g of Caramunich II. Beer got a 44 in a German beer comp and placed 2nd.