[brulosopher]

I'll add another 2 cents:

The nice thing about hydrogen sulfide is that it is volatile, and given a few weeks in a fermenter, it will fly away to undetectable levels, most of the time.

That's a good point.

I've made 50 gallons of beer using LoDo methods since deciding to give it a whirl last November.    No sulfur in any of the beers I've made.   But, I've also not spunded any of them and have let them sit at least 3 weeks in the fermenter.   However, I've also made a couple of ales that I kegged at 2 weeks with no sulfur either.

So you're not doing the full LODO method, which requires spunding afaik, yet still experiencing improvement? I find that very interesting.

Maybe I'm just lucky?   Heck, I'll take it.     I don't view any of the LoDo steps as "required".   I've just tried to incorporate as many of the suggestions as I easily can- water deoxygenation, SMB, ascorbic acid,  Brewtan B, mash cap.  Still using a copper CFC.      However, I'm sitting here sipping a helles I brewed in December (the second of two 5 gallon kegs) and it's not as awesome as it was a month ago.  Still really good, but it's lost some of the great grain smell and flavor.    Might have to brew smaller batches more often.        I can do that.

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty certain spunding is a crucial LODO component, without which you'll erase all you worked to accomplish beforehand. Can someone please let me know if I'm missing something here? Is it possible to get "it" without spunding or skipping other steps for that matter?

My hunch is that if you weren't claiming to prefer your "LODO" beer more, you'd be catching quite a bit of flack for not doing it correctly. The silence given your admission of cutting corners is rather curious.

To me, comparing a beer that has a sulfur aroma, and one that doesn't are two totally different beers, and invalidates the intention of the original experiment. It's obvious that his system is tight enough to not have to add 55 ppm of SMB.

Some tweaking needs to be done, and a proper re-test needs to be performed. The only thing we've learned is that excess SMB left in fermentation results in sulfur, which is already known.

Let's hope this kind of inadequate process and information doesn't get immaturely released before proper thought and review is put into place. To me this is just an attempt at getting some website hits because of the hot topic.

First off, you're assuming Jake's perception of sulfur was accurate; he's one person who thought that, I didn't pick it up at all in the samples he sent me, and we don't survey participants on their specific perceptions. The beers were significantly different, supporting the claims of GBF/LOB. You know as well as I do that if preference had gone the other way, there wouldn't be any of this questioning. With that said, the preference thing, which certainly flies in the face of claims some have made that LODO is universally preferred, simply supports the fairly well established fact that preference is subjective.

We'll continue exploring LODO because we're interested in it, even if people question our methodology and results when they don't align with their opinion.

And please, replicate! It's easy AND it'll help us all better understand things!

[Big Monk]

I'll add another 2 cents:

The nice thing about hydrogen sulfide is that it is volatile, and given a few weeks in a fermenter, it will fly away to undetectable levels, most of the time.

That's a good point.

I've made 50 gallons of beer using LoDo methods since deciding to give it a whirl last November.    No sulfur in any of the beers I've made.   But, I've also not spunded any of them and have let them sit at least 3 weeks in the fermenter.   However, I've also made a couple of ales that I kegged at 2 weeks with no sulfur either.

So you're not doing the full LODO method, which requires spunding afaik, yet still experiencing improvement? I find that very interesting.

Maybe I'm just lucky?   Heck, I'll take it.     I don't view any of the LoDo steps as "required".   I've just tried to incorporate as many of the suggestions as I easily can- water deoxygenation, SMB, ascorbic acid,  Brewtan B, mash cap.  Still using a copper CFC.      However, I'm sitting here sipping a helles I brewed in December (the second of two 5 gallon kegs) and it's not as awesome as it was a month ago.  Still really good, but it's lost some of the great grain smell and flavor.    Might have to brew smaller batches more often.        I can do that.

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty certain spunding is a crucial LODO component, without which you'll erase all you worked to accomplish beforehand. Can someone please let me know if I'm missing something here? Is it possible to get "it" without spunding or skipping other steps for that matter?

The hot side steps are essential. The flavors you preserve on the hot side can be extended for varying periods of time depending on your cold side techniques. Do you have to spund? No but the flavor longevity will be affected.

We've advocated and outlined a step-wise/phased implementation at LOB.com. Many have tried it and used the blog posts as a "foot in the door" to the methods. Just like any other process you implement it on your own terms and can see improvements with each step. Some start small and some go "whole hog" out of the gate. Both parties seem to be seeing results. Varying results (as far as preservation of flavors/flavor longevity is concerned), but results nonetheless.

[brulosopher]

I'll add another 2 cents:

The nice thing about hydrogen sulfide is that it is volatile, and given a few weeks in a fermenter, it will fly away to undetectable levels, most of the time.

That's a good point.

I've made 50 gallons of beer using LoDo methods since deciding to give it a whirl last November.    No sulfur in any of the beers I've made.   But, I've also not spunded any of them and have let them sit at least 3 weeks in the fermenter.   However, I've also made a couple of ales that I kegged at 2 weeks with no sulfur either.

So you're not doing the full LODO method, which requires spunding afaik, yet still experiencing improvement? I find that very interesting.

Maybe I'm just lucky?   Heck, I'll take it.     I don't view any of the LoDo steps as "required".   I've just tried to incorporate as many of the suggestions as I easily can- water deoxygenation, SMB, ascorbic acid,  Brewtan B, mash cap.  Still using a copper CFC.      However, I'm sitting here sipping a helles I brewed in December (the second of two 5 gallon kegs) and it's not as awesome as it was a month ago.  Still really good, but it's lost some of the great grain smell and flavor.    Might have to brew smaller batches more often.        I can do that.

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty certain spunding is a crucial LODO component, without which you'll erase all you worked to accomplish beforehand. Can someone please let me know if I'm missing something here? Is it possible to get "it" without spunding or skipping other steps for that matter?

The hot side steps are essential. The flavors you preserve on the hot side can be extended for varying periods of time depending on your cold side techniques. Do you have to spund? No but the flavor longevity will be affected.

We've advocated and outlined a step-wise/phased implementation at LOB.com. Many have tried it and used the blog posts as a "foot in the door" to the methods. Just like any other process you implement it on your own terms and can see improvements with each step. Some start small and some go "whole hog" out of the gate. Both parties seem to be seeing results. Varying results (as far as preservation of flavors/flavor longevity is concerned), but results nonetheless.

That's very interesting news to me, thanks for the update! So what you're saying is that a person can get away with cutting some corners and still produce the "it" character? Since the only thing I'm missing at this point is the stainless IC, I may have to give it a try!

[Big Monk]

I'll add another 2 cents:

The nice thing about hydrogen sulfide is that it is volatile, and given a few weeks in a fermenter, it will fly away to undetectable levels, most of the time.

That's a good point.

I've made 50 gallons of beer using LoDo methods since deciding to give it a whirl last November.    No sulfur in any of the beers I've made.   But, I've also not spunded any of them and have let them sit at least 3 weeks in the fermenter.   However, I've also made a couple of ales that I kegged at 2 weeks with no sulfur either.

So you're not doing the full LODO method, which requires spunding afaik, yet still experiencing improvement? I find that very interesting.

Maybe I'm just lucky?   Heck, I'll take it.     I don't view any of the LoDo steps as "required".   I've just tried to incorporate as many of the suggestions as I easily can- water deoxygenation, SMB, ascorbic acid,  Brewtan B, mash cap.  Still using a copper CFC.      However, I'm sitting here sipping a helles I brewed in December (the second of two 5 gallon kegs) and it's not as awesome as it was a month ago.  Still really good, but it's lost some of the great grain smell and flavor.    Might have to brew smaller batches more often.        I can do that.

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty certain spunding is a crucial LODO component, without which you'll erase all you worked to accomplish beforehand. Can someone please let me know if I'm missing something here? Is it possible to get "it" without spunding or skipping other steps for that matter?

The hot side steps are essential. The flavors you preserve on the hot side can be extended for varying periods of time depending on your cold side techniques. Do you have to spund? No but the flavor longevity will be affected.

We've advocated and outlined a step-wise/phased implementation at LOB.com. Many have tried it and used the blog posts as a "foot in the door" to the methods. Just like any other process you implement it on your own terms and can see improvements with each step. Some start small and some go "whole hog" out of the gate. Both parties seem to be seeing results. Varying results (as far as preservation of flavors/flavor longevity is concerned), but results nonetheless.

That's very interesting news to me, thanks for the update! So what you're saying is that a person can get away with cutting some corners and still produce the "it" character? Since the only thing I'm missing at this point is the stainless IC, I may have to give it a try!

For the most enduring flavors you'll want the full approach, but no one says you can't work your way up to it. BTB could be helpful in the boil to minimize any Fenton reactions from the copper.

Think of it as preserving the fresh malt ("It") flavors on the hot side and using the cold side as a way of making those flavors last. Cold fermentation and Spunding, closed transfers, etc. giving maximum longevity. You may preserve the flavors on the hot side and they may fade in a week. Then you implement some more process changes and they last a month. Then you go "whole hog" and it last for 6-8 months.

We wrote an article, the "keystone" article of LOB.com, "Methods of the Low Oxygen Brewhouse", detailing the phased approach and subsequently added individual blog posts for each topic.

[Joe T]

I've so far done 6 lodo batches. 2 IPA, APA, tripel, 2 pilsner. I'm almost able to fully implement the process, with the exception of recirculating the mash, and I still use a copper chiller. The end result has been great and I will continue to work on the process. My only problem with it so far has been the hit in efficiency. OG has come in consistently at ~10-12 points low.

[wobdee]

Yeah, I found no difference in flavor stability with my small 2.5 gal lodo batches spund or no spund but my kegs only last a month at the most. I also don't like the extra yeast spunding leaves behind.

[natebrews]

My only problem with it so far has been the hit in efficiency. OG has come in consistently at ~10-12 points low.

Do you think this is due to the low o2 mashing or just as a side effect of the no-sparge method (regardless of o2 method)?

What sort of efficiency were you getting?  I went from 75ish to 60ish.

[erockrph]

I think it's important to reiterate that there should be no excess NaMeta after you oxygenate. For example:

If my system requires a 20 ppm NaMeta dose, and uses 10 ppm on the hot side of the process, it should only take 2 ppm of oxygen during aeration/oxygenation to "use up" the remaining NaMeta.

The NaMeta causing the sulfur bombs is a "red herring".

To play devil's advocate a bit, and also to try to postulate an explanation of the results here, here's a thought. If you pitch an active yeast culture first, then oxygenate, that yeast may start converting some residual sulfite to H2S before it gets used up by the incoming oxygen. I don't know how rapidly this conversion would happen, but since yeast can scavenge O2 rather rapidly I think this could certainly be a contributor for those who have run into "eggy" issues with LODO methods, and all the more reason to limit SMB levels to the bare minimum needed.

Regardless of how the H2S gets there (whether it be from residual sulfites or from natural yeast production), spunding + lack of copper contact are going to make it much harder to get rid of vs a traditional fermentation.

[natebrews]

To that point, I put the active yeast starter in the fermenter and then run the wort on top of it and the oxygenate.  That last step I have never been too worried about doing quickly , so it might be 5-60 minutes later.  Let's say it was an hour, do you think that would be enough time for the yeast to interact with the remaining sulfite to a noticeable level?

[erockrph]

To that point, I put the active yeast starter in the fermenter and then run the wort on top of it and the oxygenate.  That last step I have never been too worried about doing quickly , so it might be 5-60 minutes later.  Let's say it was an hour, do you think that would be enough time for the yeast to interact with the remaining sulfite to a noticeable level?

I'd say that if you don't have an issue with H2S in your finished beer, then I wouldn't worry about it. I wasn't trying to stir up a boogeyman where there isn't one, but rather propose an explanation for why this could be happening for those who have seen it.

[natebrews]

Well, I say it because I did have one sulfur bomb beer when I started with the process and haven't been able to find a good reason why.  It is entirely possible that there was an hour (maybe more depending on the kids situation) before I oxygenated that batch. 

Then again, would the few ppm I pick up when running it into the fermenter be enough to use up the residual sulfite?  My gut says yes, but that is based on little data.

[erockrph]

Well, I say it because I did have one sulfur bomb beer when I started with the process and haven't been able to find a good reason why.  It is entirely possible that there was an hour (maybe more depending on the kids situation) before I oxygenated that batch. 

Then again, would the few ppm I pick up when running it into the fermenter be enough to use up the residual sulfite?  My gut says yes, but that is based on little data.

My gut says yes, too. But that is based on even less data

It would make for an interesting experiment. I'm not sure if there is a cheap way to measure H2S concentrations in solution, but I bet you could check easily by heating a sample in a closed vessel and taking a sniff. Thankfully, the human nose is a relatively cheap H2S detector

[natebrews]

Perhaps on my next batch I'll split off half a gallon and let that sit for a couple hours before adding o2 and then compare to the main batch to see if there is anything.

[HoosierBrew]

Just passing on some info. As to sulfury beers, I remember (as more info came out on low O2 brewing) there being several posts about keeping smb doses sub 50 ppm for ales. The good thing about the trifecta mixture, aside from being more effective IMO, is that at the .25g/gallon dose which I'm using for ales , the smb dose is in the 30ish ppm range. I get no sulfur there at all, or at the .37g/gallon dose I use for lagers. Having said that, there is possibly some strain dependent issue. As for me, the vast majority of my beers use 1056, 1450, 2206, 2124, 3711, and what is now Rustic/3726 - zero sulfur there. I occasionally use 1214, 3787 and 3522. I haven't done a Belgian low O2 style other than saison yet. So I want to check those out.

[The Beerery]

The efficiency drop is due to the low mash temp of the Low Oxygen batch, which made it fall BELOW the gelatization temp for the malt.