[Big Monk]

welp, if ya think you got more knowledge than Charles Bamforth, that tells me all I need to know about your delusion and ego.

Why so hostile? There have been some very prickly interactions on this forum but let's move on and discuss beer.

If I use 30 ppm Meta as my dose, and my system consumes 15 ppm as a scavenger, it will only take 3 ppm of O2 at aeration/oxygenation time to consume the rest. There will be zero left for yeast to interact with.

[stpug]

Mr Bamforths comments were quite simpler than yours on the subject of meta in the mash- “Sulfites in the mash are to be avoided, yeast will reduce it to sulfide and you will end up with an egg-y aroma in your beer.”

Do you feel he is incorrect about this?

Yes, I feel he is incorrect about this, if that is his actual direct quote (although, a little context can go a long way).  The statement is too simplistic, and I feel it's been taken out of context.

If sulfites in the mash directly lead to hydrogren sulfide in the beer then anyone/everyone who uses campden for chlorine/-amine removal would experience this, and there are A LOT of people using campden for chlorine/-amines removal in their strike water moments before mashing in.

Yeah, but only in fairy-dust sprinkle amounts -- 1/4 tablet per 5 gallons is friggin NUTHIN', and probably boils off to a great extent during the boil.  In greater amounts, I dunno.

Okay, but those details don't factor into Dr. Bamforth's quote - his quote is all or nothing according to baybrewer (but it might just be my dilusion talking..... or ego... I don't know, it's hard to tell them apart at times ).

What I gather then is that "fairy dust" amounts are exempt from the rule, and anything more than can be confidently contained in TinkerBell's satchel will lead to rotten egg beer.  It does not appear that there is a gray area here.

However, leaving fairy tale land and coming back to reality (which is realllllly hard for me to do), Dr. Bamforth actually recommends the use of metabisulfite (or sulfur dioxide) as a method of increasing shelf stability and reducing staling flavors:

(if you or anyone is willing to listen and watch Dr. Bamforth for 1 minute, you'll see his words from his mouth)
https://youtu.be/Fm2t_5HrMcc?t=1058

[bayareabrewer]

If we're taking quotes at face value, he states sulfites in the mash, not strike water.

[Phil_M]

Can we go back to talking about cars? I feel that us LS3 Camaro guys get along better with the new 5.0 Mustang owners than some folks in this topic do...The car sidetrack was certainly a more interesting topic than rehashing all this again.

I feel that without context, we don't know exactly what Bamforth was trying to say. I don't know many scientists who'll commit to binary statements like that except in generalization.




In other news, the Dodge Demon is being announced in two hours...

[Big Monk]

If we're taking quotes at face value, he states sulfites in the mash, not strike water.

How does it get in the mash? 😉

[bayareabrewer]

welp, if ya think you got more knowledge than Charles Bamforth, that tells me all I need to know about your delusion and ego.

Why so hostile? There have been some very prickly interactions on this forum but let's move on and discuss beer.

If I use 30 ppm Meta as my dose, and my system consumes 15 ppm as a scavenger, it will only take 3 ppm of O2 at aeration/oxygenation time to consume the rest. There will be zero left for yeast to interact with.

no hostility, but Charles is about as knowledgeable and respected in the beer world as one can be, the fact that you'll disregard his knowledge because it contradicts your beliefs is somewhat odd.

[Big Monk]

welp, if ya think you got more knowledge than Charles Bamforth, that tells me all I need to know about your delusion and ego.

Why so hostile? There have been some very prickly interactions on this forum but let's move on and discuss beer.

If I use 30 ppm Meta as my dose, and my system consumes 15 ppm as a scavenger, it will only take 3 ppm of O2 at aeration/oxygenation time to consume the rest. There will be zero left for yeast to interact with.

no hostility, but Charles is about as knowledgeable and respected in the beer world as one can be, the fact that you'll disregard his knowledge because it contradicts your beliefs is somewhat odd.

I'm not disregarding. If I don't have sulfites left at pitching time, then how can they interact with yeast?

[stpug]

Mr Bamforths comments were quite simpler than yours on the subject of meta in the mash- “Sulfites in the mash are to be avoided, yeast will reduce it to sulfide and you will end up with an egg-y aroma in your beer.”

Do you feel he is incorrect about this?

Yes, I feel he is incorrect about this, if that is his actual direct quote (although, a little context can go a long way).  The statement is too simplistic, and I feel it's been taken out of context.

If sulfites in the mash directly lead to hydrogren sulfide in the beer then anyone/everyone who uses campden for chlorine/-amine removal would experience this, and there are A LOT of people using campden for chlorine/-amines removal in their strike water moments before mashing in.

His quote applies to sulfites in the mash, and the quantity in which LODO advocates for are vastly different.

I feel as though you're now changing your position of attack.  First, it was whether we/I/anyone would disagree with Dr. Bamforth's quote from the bru experiment, which I do, and in turn you were so kind to point out the flaw(s) in my character because of doing so.  Now, the actual quantity is a necessary factor, however Dr Bamforth did not have any indication of quantity in that quote.  In addition, since I also use sulfites in my strike water (prior to mashing in) then I must also fall in-line with those homebrewers who use campden for chlorine/-amine removal - ignoring any carryover factor from those sulfites into the mash.

I feel as though I have a pretty solid understanding of your MO, so I imagine this will go on for some time.

[bayareabrewer]

welp, if ya think you got more knowledge than Charles Bamforth, that tells me all I need to know about your delusion and ego.

Why so hostile? There have been some very prickly interactions on this forum but let's move on and discuss beer.

If I use 30 ppm Meta as my dose, and my system consumes 15 ppm as a scavenger, it will only take 3 ppm of O2 at aeration/oxygenation time to consume the rest. There will be zero left for yeast to interact with.

no hostility, but Charles is about as knowledgeable and respected in the beer world as one can be, the fact that you'll disregard his knowledge because it contradicts your beliefs is somewhat odd.

I'm not disregarding. If I don't have sulfites left at pitching time, then how can they interact with yeast?

sounding like a broken record but “Sulfites in the mash are to be avoided, yeast will reduce it to sulfide and you will end up with an egg-y aroma in your beer.”

Dr. Charles Bamforth

"•Employ Sodium Metabisulfite "

lowoxygenbrewing.com

your methods contradict Dr Bamforths.

[Big Monk]

welp, if ya think you got more knowledge than Charles Bamforth, that tells me all I need to know about your delusion and ego.

Why so hostile? There have been some very prickly interactions on this forum but let's move on and discuss beer.

If I use 30 ppm Meta as my dose, and my system consumes 15 ppm as a scavenger, it will only take 3 ppm of O2 at aeration/oxygenation time to consume the rest. There will be zero left for yeast to interact with.

no hostility, but Charles is about as knowledgeable and respected in the beer world as one can be, the fact that you'll disregard his knowledge because it contradicts your beliefs is somewhat odd.

I'm not disregarding. If I don't have sulfites left at pitching time, then how can they interact with yeast?

sounding like a broken record but “Sulfites in the mash are to be avoided, yeast will reduce it to sulfide and you will end up with an egg-y aroma in your beer.”

Dr. Charles Bamforth

"•Employ Sodium Metabisulfite "

lowoxygenbrewing.com

your methods contradict Dr Bamforths.

Yeast will reduce it to sulfide. If there is sulfite left to interact with. Not saying he's wrong as a scientist but that quote doesn't apply under certain circumstances.

[stpug]

welp, if ya think you got more knowledge than Charles Bamforth, that tells me all I need to know about your delusion and ego.

Why so hostile? There have been some very prickly interactions on this forum but let's move on and discuss beer.

If I use 30 ppm Meta as my dose, and my system consumes 15 ppm as a scavenger, it will only take 3 ppm of O2 at aeration/oxygenation time to consume the rest. There will be zero left for yeast to interact with.

no hostility, but Charles is about as knowledgeable and respected in the beer world as one can be, the fact that you'll disregard his knowledge because it contradicts your beliefs is somewhat odd.

I'm not disregarding. If I don't have sulfites left at pitching time, then how can they interact with yeast?

sounding like a broken record but “Sulfites in the mash are to be avoided, yeast will reduce it to sulfide and you will end up with an egg-y aroma in your beer.”

Dr. Charles Bamforth

"•Employ Sodium Metabisulfite "

lowoxygenbrewing.com

your methods contradict Dr Bamforths.

Dr. Bamforth:
"Another thing that brewers could do, and prefer not to do, is use sulfur dioxide or metabisulfite" because "it [does] buy shelf-life and if you use SO2 it will trap the stale character".

Source -> the horse's mouth
https://youtu.be/Fm2t_5HrMcc?t=1058

[HoosierBrew]

I wouldn't claim for a second to know a fraction of what Dr Bamforth has forgotten. Having said that, what do I do with his sweeping quote since I have zero 'eggy aromas' in my beers? Is it possible to get eggy aromas, maybe even easy at first with this process? Absolutely. Is it guaranteed? Unless my sense of smell (and that of brewer friends) has left me, gotta say no. I'd love to hear him expound a bit. Hopefully he will.   

Regardless, we need to YET AGAIN remember to be civil. We're brewing freaking beer, not putting people on the moon.

[erockrph]

Unless someone can get Dr Bamforth to join in this conversation so we can all be sure we are getting proper context here, there is really no point continuing to try to interrogate a past quote of his.

Can we please move on peacefully, here?

[zwiller]

Regardless, we need to YET AGAIN remember to be civil. We're brewing freaking beer, not putting people on the moon.

LOL!  That is signature worthy material right there! 

[jhuolihan]

Unless someone can get Dr Bamforth to join in this conversation so we can all be sure we are getting proper context here, there is really no point continuing to try to interrogate a past quote of his.

Can we please move on peacefully, here?

Context: I asked Dr. Bamforth if he could give me some thoughts on the use of silfites in the mash to reduce HSO. Answer is a direct quote. Did not discuss dosages, mitigation, etc as I felt he was being generous enough with his time already.