[denny]

I mentioned it before, the esters produced in wort will not always be produced in wine must or cider. Something completely different and good in its own way may occur.

I understand. If you start with different precursors, you get different products. I am not expecting it to be exactly the same, I am just going on what it does in Beer because I have not heard of anyone using anything else. So it might not turn out Plum like, but that is what it does in Beer so that is the only reference point I have for what it may do right now.

I have tried 3 different Trappist yeasts on cider.  WY3787, WY1762, and WY 1214.  All yeasts that have a lot of character on beer.  There really didn't seem to be any difference between them in cider, nor any difference than using a neutral ale yeast.  While not definitive, there are 3 data points for you.

[Sasha]

I mentioned it before, the esters produced in wort will not always be produced in wine must or cider. Something completely different and good in its own way may occur.

I understand. If you start with different precursors, you get different products. I am not expecting it to be exactly the same, I am just going on what it does in Beer because I have not heard of anyone using anything else. So it might not turn out Plum like, but that is what it does in Beer so that is the only reference point I have for what it may do right now.

I have tried 3 different Trappist yeasts on cider.  WY3787, WY1762, and WY 1214.  All yeasts that have a lot of character on beer.  There really didn't seem to be any difference between them in cider, nor any difference than using a neutral ale yeast.  While not definitive, there are 3 data points for you.

Ok, so are you saying they do have a lot of character on beer, but do not have a lot of character on Cider and are all basically the same, and in being the same they didn't really add much to the Cider and are basically the same as a neutral ale Yeast when it comes to Cider?

Also, do you have any idea what the Trappist Yeast uses to make the Plum Esters, or what exactly the Plum Ester is? Maybe I could add something to the Cider to feed the Yeast.

[Sasha]

I just was wondering because I read a few of the Yeasts that make Red Fruit flavors like Cherry, and a few other Yeasts, and some of them mentioned things about Polysaccharide production, and various other things that were different. So if the Trappist Yeast has a certain chemical action, then I could feed it whatever it needs.

[Big Monk]

You have to think about beer yeast in a different way. There are tons of other factors that contribute very characteristic flavors: cara malts, brewing sugars and syrups, hops, etc.

A lot of the dark fruit flavors in these beers comes from a combination of things that won't be involved in wine or cider production. Trappist yeast are more estery for sure but Attenuation, gravity, wort composition, hopping, etc play a big part.


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[denny]

I mentioned it before, the esters produced in wort will not always be produced in wine must or cider. Something completely different and good in its own way may occur.

I understand. If you start with different precursors, you get different products. I am not expecting it to be exactly the same, I am just going on what it does in Beer because I have not heard of anyone using anything else. So it might not turn out Plum like, but that is what it does in Beer so that is the only reference point I have for what it may do right now.

I have tried 3 different Trappist yeasts on cider.  WY3787, WY1762, and WY 1214.  All yeasts that have a lot of character on beer.  There really didn't seem to be any difference between them in cider, nor any difference than using a neutral ale yeast.  While not definitive, there are 3 data points for you.

Ok, so are you saying they do have a lot of character on beer, but do not have a lot of character on Cider and are all basically the same, and in being the same they didn't really add much to the Cider and are basically the same as a neutral ale Yeast when it comes to Cider?

Also, do you have any idea what the Trappist Yeast uses to make the Plum Esters, or what exactly the Plum Ester is? Maybe I could add something to the Cider to feed the Yeast.

Yeah, that's what I'm saying.  A friend told me years ago that he'd tried a Belgian yeast and it gave no Belgian character to his cider.  I found that hard to belive so I decided to test it myself.  I have apple trees and a cider press so it was easy to generate lots of juice.  I tried my 3 favorite Trappist yeasts and get the results I mentioned before.  Also, I find my ciders have much more flavor when I use just the juice, rather than adding sugar to boost alcohol.  So, I would guess that the relatively thinner flavor of a higher alcohol cider might be even less susceptible to yeast flavor.  Just a guess, though.

As to the plum character, my experience is that a majority of that comes from the fermentables in the beer.  Between the dark crystal malat amd the dark candi syrup, you get the plum flavor.  WY1762, from Roch fort, really enhances that flavor.  When I've used it in a beer without those ingredients I get little to none pf that flavor.

[denny]

You have to think about beer yeast in a different way. There are tons of other factors that contribute very characteristic flavors: cara malts, brewing sugars and syrups, hops, etc.

A lot of the dark fruit flavors in these beers comes from a combination of things that won't be involved in wine or cider production. Trappist yeast are more estery for sure but Attenuation, gravity, wort composition, hopping, etc play a big part.


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Yeah, all of this^^^^^^

Sasha, without being snarky here, your inexperience is getting in your way.  You need to slow down, ask questions, and experiment with the answers you get.  A lot of your problem seems to stem from the fact that you should be the student, rather than the teacher.  Learn from tjose of us wi experience rather than seeming arrogant by simply posting info.  Sincerely, I mean that.  I think a lot of us would be willing to help you on your quest is you simply changed your manner.  I mean that in a helpful way...take it as you will.

[Sasha]

I am not expecting it to be exactly like the Esters in the Beer, I just don't want to buy a giant pot for boiling and all that right now. I'm just going to do Cider and Wine first, and I am only going to use the Trappist Yeast because I read about Trappists a few years ago. But I will eventually get all the Beer making equipment and make Beer too. So I'll try it with Wine and see what happens.

Also, I may be able to Breed it. A Trappist strain itself is kind of Novel, and then I can use UV lights and other methods of creating genetic changes, while it is mixed with another strain and they are exchanging chromosomes through horizontal gene transfer, and I'll see what happens.

I want to mix it with different Ester producing strains, like different fruits (Apple, Pear, etc), red fruits (like cherry), and maybe a Hefe since it has Banana. And I'll just see what happens with that. It should be interesting.

[Sasha]

And the way I will do it is by mixing them all together, and then letting them mix under the light and whatever other conditions to help them make genetic changes. And let them sit there for like 3 months, 6 months, 1 year, 2 years, etc. And I will randomly take small samples from different spots at those time intervals, and isolate it, and culture it. Possibly even just tiny little drops of water/alcohol/etc with Yeast in it. And either put that in its own propagation container, or in a petri dish with Agar so that it can eat. And then let that grow and it should be its own strain.

[Big Monk]

Typically strains are altered over time by targeting specific characteristics (attenuation, flocculation, etc.) and using selection to culture up the strongest performers for that characteristic.

I hope things work out for you but I think you're getting way ahead of yourself talking about genetic changes, etc.


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[Sasha]

Typically strains are altered over time by targeting specific characteristics (attenuation, flocculation, etc.) and using selection to culture up the strongest performers for that characteristic.

I hope things work out for you but I think you're getting way ahead of yourself talking about genetic changes, etc.


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Genetic changes are not hard at all with Yeast. Yeast is actually extremely easy to change. They can even select mutations so precisely that they have made Yeast strains that produce opiates, and Cannabinoids. There are even discussions about what to do if they get out to the Public somehow. And I am not trying to do anything that complicated, I am not even going to be targeting my mutations. I am just breeding strains together, and allowing the DNA to mutate as they breed.

And I have already bred a Marijuana strain before.

[Big Monk]

Whatever floats your boat man. These Yeasts are meant to do a certain job (Trappist yeast) and, to me at least, altering that is figuratively sacrilegious, in a brewing sense.

You may want to look into high alcohol tolerant, neutral flavor strains.


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[Sasha]

Whatever floats your boat man. These Yeasts are meant to do a certain job (Trappist yeast) and, to me at least, altering that is figuratively sacrilegious, in a brewing sense.

You may want to look into high alcohol tolerant, neutral flavor strains.


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Ok Mom.

Lol, jk. But I don't think I want to look into high alcohol low flavor strains. I am looking for strains that make Esters.

[Big Monk]

Whatever floats your boat man. These Yeasts are meant to do a certain job (Trappist yeast) and, to me at least, altering that is figuratively sacrilegious, in a brewing sense.

You may want to look into high alcohol tolerant, neutral flavor strains.


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Ok Mom.

Lol, jk. But I don't think I want to look into high alcohol low flavor strains. I am looking for strains that make Esters.

When these Yeasts are talked about and esters come up, it's with respect to beer wort. Your not going to get the same fermentation byproducts with other forms.


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[Sasha]

Whatever floats your boat man. These Yeasts are meant to do a certain job (Trappist yeast) and, to me at least, altering that is figuratively sacrilegious, in a brewing sense.

You may want to look into high alcohol tolerant, neutral flavor strains.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Ok Mom.

Lol, jk. But I don't think I want to look into high alcohol low flavor strains. I am looking for strains that make Esters.

When these Yeasts are talked about and esters come up, it's with respect to beer wort. Your not going to get the same fermentation byproducts with other forms.


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No, I am using Wine Yeast right now. Remember the thread where you kept complaining because I wasn't using WY or WL Yeast or one of those? Instead of posting a single post about the topic? That Yeast is meant for Grapes, and is suggested for Cider, and Apples have almost all the same precursors as grapes. It's not as big as a leap as from Grains. So the Yeasts that I will have Monday will probably form similar if not the same esters (maybe in different quantities) as when used with Grapes.

[Sasha]

Then after that, I will get Red Fruit (like Cherry), Hefe (Banana), and Trappist.

I will just have to see how the Hefe and Trappist work out for Wines.