Author Topic: Oxidization  (Read 4293 times)

Offline Hersey

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Oxidization
« on: September 28, 2018, 04:16:42 pm »
Is it only transfering from the fermenter to bottles and/or kegs that negative aspects of oxidization occur?  I've often wondered about transfering into a brew kettle when doing all grain directly from the mashtun?  Aerating the wort before, during or immediately after pitching the yeast is acceptable.

Offline narcout

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Re: Oxidization
« Reply #1 on: September 28, 2018, 04:44:32 pm »
Unless you're following the full low oxygen brewing protocol (including deoxygenating all of your strike water, etc.), it's pretty unlikely you're going to notice any ill effects from small scale, additional oxygenation on the hot side.

That said, how are you transferring wort from the mashtun to the kettle?  It's good practice to minimize splashing, etc. 
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Offline Hersey

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Re: Oxidization
« Reply #2 on: September 28, 2018, 06:12:53 pm »
I last dumped from a pot into the bk... but it's a stout so not Too worried.  Just setting up my equipment again now, putting it in the carport... last 3 batches were under open skies and everything had to be handled manually.  Hmmph... started out just showing my son in law how to brew, gave him John Palmer's book ... now I've got the bug again!  Lol!

Offline KellerBrauer

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Re: Oxidization
« Reply #3 on: September 29, 2018, 06:17:11 am »
I agree with narcout.  However, I also must say that many brewers I’ve spoken with put way too much emphasis of the elimination of oxygen in the “pre-aeration” stage of the brewing process.  I don’t believe that’s necessary at all.  I believe it’s far more important to put greater emphasis on minimizing oxygen post fermentation.
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Offline denny

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Re: Oxidization
« Reply #4 on: September 29, 2018, 08:50:43 am »
Unless you're following the full low oxygen brewing protocol (including deoxygenating all of your strike water, etc.), it's pretty unlikely you're going to notice any ill effects from small scale, additional oxygenation on the hot side.

That said, how are you transferring wort from the mashtun to the kettle?  It's good practice to minimize splashing, etc.

I've gotta disagree with that.  Even without brewing low oxygen, there are still noticeable effects from oxygen during other processes.
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Offline majorvices

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Re: Oxidization
« Reply #5 on: September 29, 2018, 10:45:18 am »
Unless you're following the full low oxygen brewing protocol (including deoxygenating all of your strike water, etc.), it's pretty unlikely you're going to notice any ill effects from small scale, additional oxygenation on the hot side.

That said, how are you transferring wort from the mashtun to the kettle?  It's good practice to minimize splashing, etc.

I've gotta disagree with that.  Even without brewing low oxygen, there are still noticeable effects from oxygen during other processes.

totally agree

Online tommymorris

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Re: Oxidization
« Reply #6 on: September 29, 2018, 11:05:22 am »
Unless you're following the full low oxygen brewing protocol (including deoxygenating all of your strike water, etc.), it's pretty unlikely you're going to notice any ill effects from small scale, additional oxygenation on the hot side.

That said, how are you transferring wort from the mashtun to the kettle?  It's good practice to minimize splashing, etc.

I've gotta disagree with that.  Even without brewing low oxygen, there are still noticeable effects from oxygen during other processes.

totally agree
narcout said “it's pretty unlikely you're going to notice any ill effects from small scale, additional oxygenation on the hot side.” Emphasis on hot side.

I think that’s right. There are definitely “noticeable effects from oxygen during other processes.” But, most of those effects are from cold side oxidation if you aren’t doing low oxygen brewing (narcout’s assumption).


Offline denny

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Re: Oxidization
« Reply #7 on: September 29, 2018, 11:47:50 am »
narcout said “it's pretty unlikely you're going to notice any ill effects from small scale, additional oxygenation on the hot side.” Emphasis on hot side.

I think that’s right. There are definitely “noticeable effects from oxygen during other processes.” But, most of those effects are from cold side oxidation if you aren’t doing low oxygen brewing (narcout’s assumption).

I've seen at least one instance that proves my point.  It is possible on the hot side whether you brew low oxygen or not.
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Offline Robert

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Re: Oxidization
« Reply #8 on: September 29, 2018, 11:57:07 am »
I don't preboil/deaerate my water or use special equipment like a mash cap, etc.  But I find that, in addition to careful, sound practice like gentle transfers and avoiding excessive stirring and splashing, using antioxidants on the hot side makes some small but noticeable difference.   Every little thing adds up, so do what you can.  But brutally rigorous cold side oxygen exclusion is a must.
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Offline narcout

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Re: Oxidization
« Reply #9 on: September 29, 2018, 02:32:24 pm »
narcout said “it's pretty unlikely you're going to notice any ill effects from small scale, additional oxygenation on the hot side.” Emphasis on hot side.

I think that’s right. There are definitely “noticeable effects from oxygen during other processes.” But, most of those effects are from cold side oxidation if you aren’t doing low oxygen brewing (narcout’s assumption).

I've seen at least one instance that proves my point.  It is possible on the hot side whether you brew low oxygen or not.

Can you please elaborate?

I did say it was good practice to avoid HSA regardless of whether one is brewing LODO.
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Offline Hersey

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Re: Oxidization
« Reply #10 on: September 30, 2018, 06:00:33 am »
Okay, well I have to admit, I suffer from CRS a lot these days.  HSA... that ring a bell!  Lol!  Well this is a stout with an SRM of about 39, but it only had an OG of 1.055, fermented(ing) with a single packet of S-04.  I added 40 Ludin's wild cherry candy drops (dissolved in hot water and chilled) to the fermenter on day six...very low activity but some has been observed.  I'm hoping it's not a total waste.  I'm working on my setup some more today.  I always enjoyed brewing so hoping I can get it together again... almost a ten year hiatus...  ::)

Offline KellerBrauer

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Re: Oxidization
« Reply #11 on: September 30, 2018, 06:08:31 am »
It seems there is a great deal of discussion pertaining to Hot Side vs. Cold Side of the brewing process.  Instead, shouldn’t the discussion be Pre-Aeration and Post-Fermentation?  Perhaps I simply don’t understand the conversation.  But we want oxygen in the wort when we pitch.  Then, we work to avoid inclusion of oxygen after fermentation.

I want as much splashing as possible when I pump my wort from the BC through my plate cooler and into the fermenter; this can only help fermentation.

So why would oxygen on the hot side be of any concern?  Am I missing something?
Joliet, IL

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Online ynotbrusum

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Re: Oxidization
« Reply #12 on: September 30, 2018, 07:20:21 am »
As a low Ox brewer for pale lagers, I try to avoid oxygen degradation throughout the process, but if you preboil strike water, you are pushing out O2 from the water; then if you mash in gently by underletting or slow immersion, you can limit oxygen uptake in the mashing process.  Carrying that through the boil you can reduce thermal stress with a gentle boil, then introduce oxygen after chilling the wort, but only in the presence of a healthy pitch of yeast, which will quickly eliminate the O2.

It’s not about any one thing, rather the several little things that taken together, gives a freshness that is easily missed by taking no such steps.

Just my 2cents, but I notice the difference and that is how I choose to brew those styles. YMMV.
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Offline Robert

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Re: Oxidization
« Reply #13 on: September 30, 2018, 07:49:31 am »
Everything that is present to oxidize and lead to stale beer post-fermentation is present at mashing-in.  Given that reaction rates double for every 10°C increase in temperature,  your wort can oxidize over 100x faster at mash, boil, and cooling and transfer temperatures than beer at fermentation and storage temperature.   So everything you can do to mitigate the effects of oxygen on the pre-fermentation side will produce a fresher tasting wort.  Rigorous exclusion of oxygen from the moment of pitching until the beer hits the glass will preserve flavor as long as possible; it's a question of what initial product you're preserving.   Hence the low-oxygen brewhouse technology implemented by the Germans in the last 50 years to extend shelf life of their fragile export Pilsners, which are nonetheless skunked to undrinkability even before their green bottles leave the filling line....  Many measures are being taken by homebrewers, including use of antioxidants and adsorbants forbidden by German custom,  and their effects have experimentally been shown to be even more significant at the homebrew level, probably because of relative surface area exposure and other scale effects.  Again, it's not all or nothing, or any one thing, it's cumulative effect.  And +1 on reducing thermal stress, that may be the best bang for the buck.
Rob Stein
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Offline Hersey

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Re: Oxidization
« Reply #14 on: September 30, 2018, 08:00:28 am »
Interesting,  I thought a more rigorous boil was desired.  I'll have to turn my burner down and give it a try.