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Author Topic: Hops can convert starches  (Read 6585 times)

Offline gws

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Hops can convert starches
« on: October 06, 2018, 08:51:27 am »
Interesting bit of research published just a few days ago: https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs.jafc.8b03563

TL;DR - dry hopping may decrease your final gravity.

Cheers,
g
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Offline denny

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Re: Hops can convert starches
« Reply #1 on: October 06, 2018, 10:03:26 am »
Interesting bit of research published just a few days ago: https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs.jafc.8b03563

TL;DR - dry hopping may decrease your final gravity.

Cheers,
g

No, it was first published between 1939-41.  We talked about it on Experimental Brewing a couple years ago.  Here's a link to the show and the original paper...https://www.experimentalbrew.com/podcast/episode-12-going-stale
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Offline Robert

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Re: Hops can convert starches
« Reply #2 on: October 06, 2018, 10:26:49 am »
And the effect was observed and utilized long before that, if not fully understood (though by the late 19th century,  diastase was known to be responsible.)    It was the primary reason for dry hopping in the 19th century,  along with providing tannins to precipitate proteins, which together biologically and physically stabilized beer.
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Offline gws

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Re: Hops can convert starches
« Reply #3 on: October 09, 2018, 12:54:19 pm »
No, it was first published between 1939-41.  We talked about it on Experimental Brewing a couple years ago.  Here's a link to the show and the original paper...https://www.experimentalbrew.com/podcast/episode-12-going-stale

That's really interesting. The Scientific American article I read about this in was the result of some issues Allagash was having with high pressures in bottle-aged dry-hopped beers. https://www.scientificamerican.com/podcast/episode/beer-fermentation-hops-along/ (there's a transcript available)

Funny that this was a big 'mystery' to the guys at Allagash, and is apparently hip-pocket knowledge among the homebrewers!
“Kilgore Trout once wrote a short story which was a dialogue between two pieces of yeast. They were discussing the possible purposes of life as they ate sugar and suffocated in their own excrement. Because of their limited intelligence, they never came close to guessing that they were making champagne.”
- Kurt Vonnegut


Offline denny

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Re: Hops can convert starches
« Reply #4 on: October 09, 2018, 01:45:47 pm »
No, it was first published between 1939-41.  We talked about it on Experimental Brewing a couple years ago.  Here's a link to the show and the original paper...https://www.experimentalbrew.com/podcast/episode-12-going-stale

That's really interesting. The Scientific American article I read about this in was the result of some issues Allagash was having with high pressures in bottle-aged dry-hopped beers. https://www.scientificamerican.com/podcast/episode/beer-fermentation-hops-along/ (there's a transcript available)

Funny that this was a big 'mystery' to the guys at Allagash, and is apparently hip-pocket knowledge among the homebrewers!

Guess they ought to listen to Experimental Brewing!  :)
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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Offline Robert

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Re: Hops can convert starches
« Reply #5 on: October 09, 2018, 02:01:52 pm »
Just this weekend I was reading through some old blog posts of Ron Pattinson's, and found excerpts from an extensive paper on this from the Brewer's Guardian in 1893.  It doesn't seem much has been added to the subject since then! 
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Offline Hersey

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Re: Hops can convert starches
« Reply #6 on: October 09, 2018, 02:17:27 pm »
Good to know, I'm going to try dry hopping for the first time ever.  Lol! 

Offline denny

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Re: Hops can convert starches
« Reply #7 on: October 09, 2018, 02:43:03 pm »
Good to know, I'm going to try dry hopping for the first time ever.  Lol!

It's not an issue unless you're dry hopping at extremely high levels.
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Offline dmtaylor

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Re: Hops can convert starches
« Reply #8 on: October 10, 2018, 05:32:38 am »
Good to know, I'm going to try dry hopping for the first time ever.  Lol!

It's not an issue unless you're dry hopping at extremely high levels.

Disagree.  A little dab did me.
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Offline denny

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Re: Hops can convert starches
« Reply #9 on: October 10, 2018, 08:46:36 am »
Good to know, I'm going to try dry hopping for the first time ever.  Lol!

It's not an issue unless you're dry hopping at extremely high levels.

Disagree.  A little dab did me.

Yer gonna have to convince me it Was the hops since science and testing says otherwise.  How many times has it happened?  What makes you relate it to dry hops?
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Offline dmtaylor

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Re: Hops can convert starches
« Reply #10 on: October 10, 2018, 08:57:37 am »
Good to know, I'm going to try dry hopping for the first time ever.  Lol!

It's not an issue unless you're dry hopping at extremely high levels.

Disagree.  A little dab did me.

Yer gonna have to convince me it Was the hops since science and testing says otherwise.  How many times has it happened?  What makes you relate it to dry hops?

Again?!  I might be unable to convince you, but can't see why my experience is unconvincing just because it's not "sciency" enough.  Here it is once again:

Dry hopped?  Hops contain enzymes.  Look up "The Freshening Power of Hops" and "hop creep".

Yeah, and sugars, but it's a stretch to go there for this case.  All reports of those eff3cts involve KARGE amounts of dry hops

My experience with my recent maibock with 0.67 oz Palisades as a dry hop:

5/28 1.062
6/3   1.019
6/25 1.019 stalled for 22 days!, added dry hops
7/3   1.017 fizzing again, racked to secondary
7/12 1.013 no more fizzing, bottled

Maybe that's a "KARGE" amount of hops, maybe not, I dunno, you be the judge.  That's my experience though.

Key things to stress: "stalled for 22 days!", then added dry hops, then SG finally fell from 1.019 to 1.013.  There was friggin no activity at all for 22 days.  (The only reason I waited so long to dry hop is that I was out of state on vacation -- checked gravity before and after vacation.)
Dave

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Offline denny

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Re: Hops can convert starches
« Reply #11 on: October 10, 2018, 09:08:37 am »
How much hops did you add?  Has it happened more than once?  How can you track  it to disaster in the hops?
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Offline Wilbur

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Re: Hops can convert starches
« Reply #12 on: October 10, 2018, 10:58:15 am »
How much hops did you add?  Has it happened more than once?  How can you track  it to disaster in the hops?

I believe his point is that fermentation was stable for several weeks, until the 0.67 oz of dry hops were added.

My question on this is: The typical advice for drinking hoppy beers, commercial or homebrew, has been to drink them as fresh as possible to avoid "freshness" (aroma, flavor, whatever). How much of that issue is due to aging/oxidizing hop compounds vs. change in the beer related to these enzymes? I imagine that'd be more of an issue for packaged beer.

Offline gws

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Re: Hops can convert starches
« Reply #13 on: October 10, 2018, 11:07:00 am »
Good to know, I'm going to try dry hopping for the first time ever.  Lol!

It's not an issue unless you're dry hopping at extremely high levels.

Disagree.  A little dab did me.

Yer gonna have to convince me it Was the hops since science and testing says otherwise.  How many times has it happened?  What makes you relate it to dry hops?

Again?!  I might be unable to convince you, but can't see why my experience is unconvincing just because it's not "sciency" enough.  Here it is once again:

Dry hopped?  Hops contain enzymes.  Look up "The Freshening Power of Hops" and "hop creep".

Yeah, and sugars, but it's a stretch to go there for this case.  All reports of those eff3cts involve KARGE amounts of dry hops

My experience with my recent maibock with 0.67 oz Palisades as a dry hop:

5/28 1.062
6/3   1.019
6/25 1.019 stalled for 22 days!, added dry hops
7/3   1.017 fizzing again, racked to secondary
7/12 1.013 no more fizzing, bottled

Maybe that's a "KARGE" amount of hops, maybe not, I dunno, you be the judge.  That's my experience though.

Key things to stress: "stalled for 22 days!", then added dry hops, then SG finally fell from 1.019 to 1.013.  There was friggin no activity at all for 22 days.  (The only reason I waited so long to dry hop is that I was out of state on vacation -- checked gravity before and after vacation.)

What if it was introduction of a small amount of oxygen when you dry-hopped that 're-stimulated' fermentation?
“Kilgore Trout once wrote a short story which was a dialogue between two pieces of yeast. They were discussing the possible purposes of life as they ate sugar and suffocated in their own excrement. Because of their limited intelligence, they never came close to guessing that they were making champagne.”
- Kurt Vonnegut


Offline dmtaylor

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Re: Hops can convert starches
« Reply #14 on: October 10, 2018, 11:36:53 am »
How much hops did you add?  Has it happened more than once?  How can you track  it to disaster in the hops?

I believe his point is that fermentation was stable for several weeks, until the 0.67 oz of dry hops were added.

My question on this is: The typical advice for drinking hoppy beers, commercial or homebrew, has been to drink them as fresh as possible to avoid [loss of?] "freshness" (aroma, flavor, whatever). How much of that issue is due to aging/oxidizing hop compounds vs. change in the beer related to these enzymes? I imagine that'd be more of an issue for packaged beer.

Thank you for your support, sir.  You get it.

It is clear to me is that a dry hopped beer will tend to evolve with age.  However there continues to be a lot of variables at play.  Is this evolution due more to oxidation, or enzymes, or both, or something else?  The greater question I would have: Has the brewer allowed the dry hop enzymes to finish doing their thing prior to packaging, or did they immediately package the beer before the enzymes could take effect and then expect you to drink it all up within a week of packaging, or not, or what?  In my case, I left the beer in secondary long after I dry hopped, until Final-Final Gravity of 1.013 was reached.  This took a long time actually, 17 days after dry hopping to be precise!  I think most brewers out there would be hesitant to dry hop for as long as I did prior to consumption, which indicates to me that evolution IN THE PACKAGE is happening all over the dang place, and might very well be the true reason why people say "drink it fresh!" based on flavor impacts, without fully understanding why we should drink it that fresh or how fast the "freshness" disappears.  I don't know if people understand or will ever agree upon the definition of "fresh"... to some perhaps this means "within the first 17 days of dry hopping" or of packaging!?!?  Can the exact number of days be quanitified and agreed upon by all brewers?!  Good luck with that!  And so what if they wait longer than 17 days or whatever.... is the beer just drier / lower gravity / more attenuated at that point than the brewer intended?  Or is there some other biotransformation or oxidation going on?  And does this continue far beyond the first 17 days or whatever?!  Gosh, I don't know, I don't have all the answers, and I really don't think ANYONE does or ever will!  Very few if any folks today understand very well what's all going on when they dry hop, and what "freshness" really means and whether and why it matters, IF it matters.  We all have a lot more to learn.  Few have run any extensive experiments on dry hopping to know what process they like best, why they like it best, and how much it matters.  We all just have a tendency to do whatever the "experts" do without question and without our own experience to form our own opinions.  I'm still learning too.  I only have this one experience to go by so far.... but it was an accidental eureka moment for me, I was like hey wait a minute.... why should dry hopping unstick a stuck fermentation..... and this one experience I've had might still be infinitely better than the zero experience that many others have who will argue tooth & nail that they've got all the answers when really they have nothing but what someone else told them.

But anyway.  Sorry if this sounds ranty........ it just kind of all spilled out in an ugly disorganized manner, and I'm too busy today to edit it.... so.... there you go, take it or ignore it, it honestly doesn't matter as much to me as it might sound.

Cheers all.
Dave

The world will become a much more pleasant place to live when each and every one of us realizes that we are all idiots.