Author Topic: Lager yeast for ales  (Read 984 times)

Online denny

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Re: Lager yeast for ales
« Reply #15 on: August 03, 2019, 05:10:49 PM »
There was a presentation at HomebrewCon by Fermentis on 34/70 being clean up to the mid to high 60s. The date were convincing.

Data are great..experience is  better and my experience is that it works fine.
Is it true that Diamond lager dry yeast is the same as 34/70?

I believe so, although when I asked biologist at Lallema d that exact question all she wpu,d say is that it's the Weihenstephan strain.  Good enough for me.  I have some samples of it, but haven't had a chance to try them yet.  BTW, speaking of Lallemand, I've also been playing with BRY97.  At this point it seems far cleaner than US05.
I brewed a no-boil pale ale with BRY97 that turned out pretty good. My only issue was how long the lag time was.

I'm of the opinion that if your sanitationm is good and the lag is less than 3 days, it doesn't really matter.
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Re: Lager yeast for ales
« Reply #16 on: August 03, 2019, 06:13:05 PM »
Didn't realize I was plural....I guess I DO need to lose some weight!   ;D
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Re: Lager yeast for ales
« Reply #17 on: August 03, 2019, 06:14:16 PM »
There was a presentation at HomebrewCon by Fermentis on 34/70 being clean up to the mid to high 60s. The date were convincing.

Data are great..experience is  better and my experience is that it works fine.
Is it true that Diamond lager dry yeast is the same as 34/70?

That’s what they say....

The Cali Common, 34/70, and S-189 and equivalents (all Frohberg?) are all supposed to be OK warmer per the package.

I am about to use MJ Cali Lager yeast at 65*F in an Amber Lager loosely based on NB Ranger to see how it turns out. That should be in this strain’s wheelhouse.


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Who is "they"?
You just said it.

LOL


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Re: Lager yeast for ales
« Reply #18 on: August 03, 2019, 06:15:33 PM »
Didn't realize I was plural....I guess I DO need to lose some weight!   ;D

Just heard t around the Internet just like comments such as yours. Who knows what’s what.


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Re: Lager yeast for ales
« Reply #19 on: August 03, 2019, 06:42:59 PM »
Didn't realize I was plural....I guess I DO need to lose some weight!   ;D

Just heard t around the Internet just like comments such as yours. Who knows what’s what.


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Dave Taylor put together a chart (there's a link somewhere here on the forum, heck if I know where now) sometime last winter that kind of summarized in a convenient way the then-current state of affairs based on all the studies, comments on suregork's blog, etc. regarding a number of popular yeasts' ID's.  Don't know if there are updates, but it seemed pretty much accepted at that point that Diamond is yet another version of Weihenstephan 34/70.  But the caveat still should be observed that, like with the Chicos or any other yeast strain, even if there's a common source, that doesn't mean they haven't diverged in the custody of the different labs, and that even their different handling and packaging methods may lead  to some different performance characteristics.  Still, it's probably safe to say that WLP830, WY2124, Diamond, Saflager W-34/70, and M76 are all pretty darn close to identical.
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Re: Lager yeast for ales
« Reply #20 on: August 03, 2019, 06:50:12 PM »
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Offline reverseapachemaster

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Re: Lager yeast for ales
« Reply #21 on: August 03, 2019, 07:10:06 PM »
I tried a few ale styles with 34/70 fermented in the 60s. They turned out ok but I felt like they were too thin and lacked anything dynamic. Overall more bland than brewing with chico.
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Re: Lager yeast for ales
« Reply #22 on: August 03, 2019, 07:35:43 PM »
He posted this on Aug 2: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1CEl1_Fb8CgQcAqbFNETgOwH5BWx3bTqEt0kEpV-O5OM/htmlview


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Thanks for providing the link.  Looks like no edits since the original posting.   Just about the only reasonably reliable chart of its kind we've got at this point.
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Offline Thirsty_Monk

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Re: Lager yeast for ales
« Reply #23 on: August 04, 2019, 02:31:31 AM »
It depends what flavor profile you want to create. Alternate pitching rate and fermentation temp with the same yeast and you will create different flavor profile.

WY2124 quite versatile yeast.
Well, I'm looking for the standard "clean" profile that I get from, say, WLP001. Since WLP830, for instance, produces quite a bit of Sulphur during the fermentation process, I'm wondering if used in an ale at perhaps 60 degrees if it would generate a lot of Sulphur that I couldn't get rid of during the fermentation process.
I have been maintaining three strains of yeast (WLP 001, 002, 830) and repitching them on a rotating basis. My thought was that if I could use 830 in both my American style ales and German lagers, I could simplify the process of maintaining three strains.
Sulphur is sign of stress. Low fermentation temperature is a stress factor. If you pitch at Ale pitching rate and ferment at Ale fermentation schedule, that will go away.
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Re: Lager yeast for ales
« Reply #24 on: August 04, 2019, 10:18:48 AM »
It depends what flavor profile you want to create. Alternate pitching rate and fermentation temp with the same yeast and you will create different flavor profile.

WY2124 quite versatile yeast.
Well, I'm looking for the standard "clean" profile that I get from, say, WLP001. Since WLP830, for instance, produces quite a bit of Sulphur during the fermentation process, I'm wondering if used in an ale at perhaps 60 degrees if it would generate a lot of Sulphur that I couldn't get rid of during the fermentation process.
I have been maintaining three strains of yeast (WLP 001, 002, 830) and repitching them on a rotating basis. My thought was that if I could use 830 in both my American style ales and German lagers, I could simplify the process of maintaining three strains.
Sulphur is sign of stress. Low fermentation temperature is a stress factor. If you pitch at Ale pitching rate and ferment at Ale fermentation schedule, that will go away.

Thanks, I'm going to give it a go.
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Lager yeast for ales
« Reply #25 on: August 04, 2019, 12:22:05 PM »
It depends what flavor profile you want to create. Alternate pitching rate and fermentation temp with the same yeast and you will create different flavor profile.

WY2124 quite versatile yeast.
Well, I'm looking for the standard "clean" profile that I get from, say, WLP001. Since WLP830, for instance, produces quite a bit of Sulphur during the fermentation process, I'm wondering if used in an ale at perhaps 60 degrees if it would generate a lot of Sulphur that I couldn't get rid of during the fermentation process.
I have been maintaining three strains of yeast (WLP 001, 002, 830) and repitching them on a rotating basis. My thought was that if I could use 830 in both my American style ales and German lagers, I could simplify the process of maintaining three strains.

There’s a VERY long discussion on this at HBT. “They” (the folks in that thread) say that the sulfur is missing in warm fermented lagers with the 34/70 strains. So much so that “they” are complaining because it isn’t there and “they” expect it to a point in a German Lager.

BTW, another chief complaint “they” have is the difficulty to get the 34/70 series strains to clear. For that reason some of “them” moved to the California Lager strains. I am about to brew a few to see how it works out.

Since 830 is reported to be a 34/70 strain (based on Dave’s document linked above) you should be OK to ferment warm or cold with it (based on that post in HBT).  S-189, 34/70, and California Lager strains all have a wide temp range listed on their packaging and those yeast strains reportedly (based on that thread) do well warm.

However, I believe the esters often associated with Ales may be missing with those strains.

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« Last Edit: August 04, 2019, 01:07:45 PM by BrewBama »
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Offline Thirsty_Monk

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Re: Lager yeast for ales
« Reply #26 on: August 04, 2019, 02:31:05 PM »
It depends what flavor profile you want to create. Alternate pitching rate and fermentation temp with the same yeast and you will create different flavor profile.

WY2124 quite versatile yeast.
Well, I'm looking for the standard "clean" profile that I get from, say, WLP001. Since WLP830, for instance, produces quite a bit of Sulphur during the fermentation process, I'm wondering if used in an ale at perhaps 60 degrees if it would generate a lot of Sulphur that I couldn't get rid of during the fermentation process.
I have been maintaining three strains of yeast (WLP 001, 002, 830) and repitching them on a rotating basis. My thought was that if I could use 830 in both my American style ales and German lagers, I could simplify the process of maintaining three strains.

There’s a VERY long discussion on this at HBT. “They” (the folks in that thread) say that the sulfur is missing in warm fermented lagers with the 34/70 strains. So much so that “they” are complaining because it isn’t there and “they” expect it to a point in a German Lager.

BTW, another chief complaint “they” have is the difficulty to get the 34/70 series strains to clear. For that reason some of “them” moved to the California Lager strains. I am about to brew a few to see how it works out.

Since 830 is reported to be a 34/70 strain (based on Dave’s document linked above) you should be OK to ferment warm or cold with it (based on that post in HBT).  S-189, 34/70, and California Lager strains all have a wide temp range listed on their packaging and those yeast strains reportedly (based on that thread) do well warm.

However, I believe the esters often associated with Ales may be missing with those strains.

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Esters are developed in yeast grow phase of fermentation. You adjust ester production with fermentation temperature and pitching rate. Higher initial fermentation temperature will give you more esters.

So the low ester production observed  with Lager yeast strain = not enough yeast growth in the beginning of the fermentation.

Nothing magical about that. You want more esters, create more esters. You want less esters, create less esters.
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Re: Lager yeast for ales
« Reply #27 on: August 04, 2019, 02:41:33 PM »
Right on, Leos.  I'm one of the people who don't want much in the way of esters.  I start with a low ester strain yeast, thenj treat it in a manner, that produces as few esters as possible.
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Re: Lager yeast for ales
« Reply #28 on: August 04, 2019, 02:58:44 PM »
Since I've been doing warm, pressurized lager fermentation, I've had everything I thought I knew about sulfur and esters thrown into doubt.   Growth is strong early on at high temperatures, yet the application of top pressure even late in fermentation (apparently this is what does it) suppresses ester formation somehow.  I never detect any sulfur in the ferm chamber at these warmer (ale-like) temperatures (though these fermentations proceed so rapidly maybe I'm missing it.) 

Take into account everything all those "theys" on the HBT warm lager thread BrewBama referenced are reporting and...

I am beginning to suspect something very radical (in light of all the study and discussion that's ever been devoted to fermentation procedures) about ester production, and sulfur as well: 

Yeast strain is far more important than how it's treated.   Pick the right yeast and it will pretty much do its thing no matter what you do to it (within reason.)

How's that for simple homebrewing, Denny?
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Online denny

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Re: Lager yeast for ales
« Reply #29 on: August 04, 2019, 03:51:48 PM »
Since I've been doing warm, pressurized lager fermentation, I've had everything I thought I knew about sulfur and esters thrown into doubt.   Growth is strong early on at high temperatures, yet the application of top pressure even late in fermentation (apparently this is what does it) suppresses ester formation somehow.  I never detect any sulfur in the ferm chamber at these warmer (ale-like) temperatures (though these fermentations proceed so rapidly maybe I'm missing it.) 

Take into account everything all those "theys" on the HBT warm lager thread BrewBama referenced are reporting and...

I am beginning to suspect something very radical (in light of all the study and discussion that's ever been devoted to fermentation procedures) about ester production, and sulfur as well: 

Yeast strain is far more important than how it's treated.   Pick the right yeast and it will pretty much do its thing no matter what you do to it (within reason.)

How's that for simple homebrewing, Denny?

Works for me.
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