[Visor]

FWLIW I recently did a couple split ferment batches with M-54 Cal common and 05, in both beers the M54 finished faster but a couple points higher than the 05, IIRC in one batch the M54 was finished, crashed and bottled before the 05 had finished eating. In both cases the 05 beer was far and away the better tasting of the 2, so much so that I'll probably do my house common with 05 in the future. Yesterdays batch I'm splitting between 34/70 at lager temps and 05 at ale temps. I boiled each separately with different hops so the only thing I may find out from the "exberiment" is the difference in attenuation.

[BrewBama]

FWLIW I recently did a couple split ferment batches with M-54 Cal common and 05, in both beers the M54 finished faster but a couple points higher than the 05, IIRC in one batch the M54 was finished, crashed and bottled before the 05 had finished eating. In both cases the 05 beer was far and away the better tasting of the 2, so much so that I'll probably do my house common with 05 in the future. Yesterdays batch I'm splitting between 34/70 at lager temps and 05 at ale temps. I boiled each separately with different hops so the only thing I may find out from the "exberiment" is the difference in attenuation.

Good stuff


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[BrewBama]

It depends what flavor profile you want to create. Alternate pitching rate and fermentation temp with the same yeast and you will create different flavor profile.

WY2124 quite versatile yeast.

Well, I'm looking for the standard "clean" profile that I get from, say, WLP001. Since WLP830, for instance, produces quite a bit of Sulphur during the fermentation process, I'm wondering if used in an ale at perhaps 60 degrees if it would generate a lot of Sulphur that I couldn't get rid of during the fermentation process.
I have been maintaining three strains of yeast (WLP 001, 002, 830) and repitching them on a rotating basis. My thought was that if I could use 830 in both my American style ales and German lagers, I could simplify the process of maintaining three strains.

There’s a VERY long discussion on this at HBT. “They” (the folks in that thread) say that the sulfur is missing in warm fermented lagers with the 34/70 strains. So much so that “they” are complaining because it isn’t there and “they” expect it to a point in a German Lager.

BTW, another chief complaint “they” have is the difficulty to get the 34/70 series strains to clear. For that reason some of “them” moved to the California Lager strains. I am about to brew a few to see how it works out.

Since 830 is reported to be a 34/70 strain (based on Dave’s document linked above) you should be OK to ferment warm or cold with it (based on that post in HBT).  S-189, 34/70, and California Lager strains all have a wide temp range listed on their packaging and those yeast strains reportedly (based on that thread) do well warm.

However, I believe the esters often associated with Ales may be missing with those strains.

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Esters are developed in yeast grow phase of fermentation. You adjust ester production with fermentation temperature and pitching rate. Higher initial fermentation temperature will give you more esters.

So the low ester production observed  with Lager yeast strain = not enough yeast growth in the beginning of the fermentation.

Nothing magical about that. You want more esters, create more esters. You want less esters, create less esters.

 I’ve always read what you are saying but that’s not what “they” are finding as far as I can tell by simply reading through “their” experiences.  “They” are fermenting higher than I dare and NOT getting esters ...unless I am misinterpreting.

What “they” are saying is more in line with this:

Yeast strain is far more important than how it's treated.   Pick the right yeast and it will pretty much do its thing no matter what you do to it (within reason.)

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[Robert]

It depends what flavor profile you want to create. Alternate pitching rate and fermentation temp with the same yeast and you will create different flavor profile.

WY2124 quite versatile yeast.

Well, I'm looking for the standard "clean" profile that I get from, say, WLP001. Since WLP830, for instance, produces quite a bit of Sulphur during the fermentation process, I'm wondering if used in an ale at perhaps 60 degrees if it would generate a lot of Sulphur that I couldn't get rid of during the fermentation process.
I have been maintaining three strains of yeast (WLP 001, 002, 830) and repitching them on a rotating basis. My thought was that if I could use 830 in both my American style ales and German lagers, I could simplify the process of maintaining three strains.

There’s a VERY long discussion on this at HBT. “They” (the folks in that thread) say that the sulfur is missing in warm fermented lagers with the 34/70 strains. So much so that “they” are complaining because it isn’t there and “they” expect it to a point in a German Lager.

BTW, another chief complaint “they” have is the difficulty to get the 34/70 series strains to clear. For that reason some of “them” moved to the California Lager strains. I am about to brew a few to see how it works out.

Since 830 is reported to be a 34/70 strain (based on Dave’s document linked above) you should be OK to ferment warm or cold with it (based on that post in HBT).  S-189, 34/70, and California Lager strains all have a wide temp range listed on their packaging and those yeast strains reportedly (based on that thread) do well warm.

However, I believe the esters often associated with Ales may be missing with those strains.

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Esters are developed in yeast grow phase of fermentation. You adjust ester production with fermentation temperature and pitching rate. Higher initial fermentation temperature will give you more esters.

So the low ester production observed  with Lager yeast strain = not enough yeast growth in the beginning of the fermentation.

Nothing magical about that. You want more esters, create more esters. You want less esters, create less esters.

 I’ve always read what you are saying but that’s not what “they” are finding as far as I can tell by simply reading through “their” experiences.  “They” are fermenting higher than I dare and NOT getting esters ...unless I am misinterpreting.


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That's what I'm getting at too.  We can no doubt manipulate things a little.  But that's a minor adjustment, while the bulk of the outcome is determined by the yeast's hardwired tendencies.   Like so many things we do, ingredients are far more determinative than subtleties of process.   And the little adjustments are probably both more controllable and more crucial at the commercial level.   Don't get me wrong, I'm gonna remain anal and keep geeking out over the details.   But Denny and those warm lager guys and all those taking  simple approaches to everything might be more securely in possession of all their marbles.

[mainebrewer]

[/quote]

BTW, another chief complaint “they” have is the difficulty to get the 34/70 series strains to clear. For that reason some of “them” moved to the California Lager strains. I am about to brew a few to see how it works out.

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[/quote]
I can see that being an issue as I've found WLP830 to be pretty slow in clearing. But a couple of weeks in the low 30's seems to take care of that.

[Visor]

   I've used M54 quite extensively and 2112 a few times, I've yet to have either of them clear up all that well. Just sayin'. I haven't yet split a batch between Cal Lager and 34/70 or M76, sounds like something that needs to go on my short list.

[mainebrewer]

   I've used M54 quite extensively and 2112 a few times, I've yet to have either of them clear up all that well. Just sayin'. I haven't yet split a batch between Cal Lager and 34/70 or M76, sounds like something that needs to go on my short list.

Most of the lager strains I've used don't clear as quickly as the Chico yeast strains do.

[dmtaylor]

Dave Taylor put together a chart (there's a link somewhere here on the forum, heck if I know where now) sometime last winter that kind of summarized in a convenient way the then-current state of affairs based on all the studies, comments on suregork's blog, etc. regarding a number of popular yeasts' ID's.  Don't know if there are updates, but it seemed pretty much accepted at that point that Diamond is yet another version of Weihenstephan 34/70.  But the caveat still should be observed that, like with the Chicos or any other yeast strain, even if there's a common source, that doesn't mean they haven't diverged in the custody of the different labs, and that even their different handling and packaging methods may lead  to some different performance characteristics.  Still, it's probably safe to say that WLP830, WY2124, Diamond, Saflager W-34/70, and M76 are all pretty darn close to identical.

Sorry I'm 6 months late.  Updated permalink:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/16XRUloO3WXqH9Ixsf5vx2DIKDmrEQJ36tLRBmmya7Jo/edit?usp=sharing

And I still can't promise this is all 100% correct... but in my biased opinion I do believe it is about 95% correct.  Enjoy. 

[TXFlyGuy]

Forgive me for asking, but using a lager yeast would make your beer a lager, not an ale, right?

How about this...just use Wyeast 1056. It is clean and versatile. 1056 will ferment at both cool temps and warm temps. A local brewery used it to ferment their "lager" style beers, using cool temps. The temp is from 60F to 72F. And I think it will work at even more extreme temps.

Or, use the Wyeast 2112, California Common strain. It does well at warmer temps, 58 - 68F.

With regards to the above comments on W-34/70, we will keg some very soon, and a full report will be posted. Based on my small sample taste test, we have a winner!

[dmtaylor]

Forgive me for asking, but using a lager yeast would make your beer a lager, not an ale, right?

Depends who you ask.  Some will differentiate by species, some by manufacturer name, and some by process.

Personally I say it's only a "lager" if it uses pastorianus (species), and preferably at relatively cool temperatures as well (process), and I couldn't care less about whether the manufacturer considers it a "lager" or an "ale" yeast (name).

But I'm sure many people would disagree with me, and that's fine.  The terms mean different things to different people.  This is not far from the debate over "stout" vs. "porter".  Personally I think the two "styles" have evolved to be one and the same.  But many would beg to differ.  And again I don't care.

Cheers.

[BrewBama]

Not surprising 34/70 operates either cold or warm. It’s fairly close to 2112/810. Interestingly, A15 (supposedly an Ale yeast) is it’s closest relative in the Lager family.




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[denny]

Forgive me for asking, but using a lager yeast would make your beer a lager, not an ale, right?

How about this...just use Wyeast 1056. It is clean and versatile. 1056 will ferment at both cool temps and warm temps. A local brewery used it to ferment their "lager" style beers, using cool temps. The temp is from 60F to 72F. And I think it will work at even more extreme temps.

Or, use the Wyeast 2112, California Common strain. It does well at warmer temps, 58 - 68F.

With regards to the above comments on W-34/70, we will keg some very soon, and a full report will be posted. Based on my small sample taste test, we have a winner!

Considering that some lager yeasts  are genetically ale yeast (IIRC 34/70 is one), its a rough call to make.

[dmtaylor]

Forgive me for asking, but using a lager yeast would make your beer a lager, not an ale, right?

How about this...just use Wyeast 1056. It is clean and versatile. 1056 will ferment at both cool temps and warm temps. A local brewery used it to ferment their "lager" style beers, using cool temps. The temp is from 60F to 72F. And I think it will work at even more extreme temps.

Or, use the Wyeast 2112, California Common strain. It does well at warmer temps, 58 - 68F.

With regards to the above comments on W-34/70, we will keg some very soon, and a full report will be posted. Based on my small sample taste test, we have a winner!

Considering that some lager yeasts  are genetically ale yeast (IIRC 34/70 is one), its a rough call to make.

W-34/70 is in fact pastorianus.

The most surprising "lager" strains that were actually proven to be cerevisiae include: WLP800 (but NOT Wyeast 2001, these are NOT the same), and WLP838 (but NOT 2308, these are NOT the same).

[TXFlyGuy]

If some lager yeasts are genetically ale yeasts, might some ale yeasts be genetically lager yeasts?

[hopfenundmalz]

If some lager yeasts are genetically ale yeasts, might some ale yeasts be genetically lager yeasts?

WLP-051 has been classified as a lager strain.