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Author Topic: All Grain Witbier  (Read 6049 times)

Offline denny

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Re: All Grain Witbier
« Reply #30 on: December 31, 2019, 08:02:07 am »
The sulfur smell has greatly diminished after 2 weeks. Only a subtle hint remained, tastes fine.
Bottled up, lesson learned, was the first and last time that I don't aerate before pitching yeast.

What makes you think that it was due to lack of aeration?
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Fire Rooster

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Re: All Grain Witbier
« Reply #31 on: December 31, 2019, 11:18:21 am »
The sulfur smell has greatly diminished after 2 weeks. Only a subtle hint remained, tastes fine.
Bottled up, lesson learned, was the first and last time that I don't aerate before pitching yeast.

What makes you think that it was due to lack of aeration?

It was the first time ever I didn't aerate the wort prior to pitching the yeast, and this--

http://brulosophy.com/2017/04/10/the-lodo-effect-evaluating-the-low-oxygen-brewing-method-exbeeriment-results/
« Last Edit: December 31, 2019, 11:22:59 am by Fire Rooster »

Offline denny

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Re: All Grain Witbier
« Reply #32 on: December 31, 2019, 11:36:44 am »
The sulfur smell has greatly diminished after 2 weeks. Only a subtle hint remained, tastes fine.
Bottled up, lesson learned, was the first and last time that I don't aerate before pitching yeast.

What makes you think that it was due to lack of aeration?

It was the first time ever I didn't aerate the wort prior to pitching the yeast, and this--

http://brulosophy.com/2017/04/10/the-lodo-effect-evaluating-the-low-oxygen-brewing-method-exbeeriment-results/

I think you're jumping to conclusions.   I never purposely aerate and it causes me no problems.  Maybe I missed it...did you use dry or liquid yeast?  Starter?
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

Fire Rooster

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Re: All Grain Witbier
« Reply #33 on: December 31, 2019, 01:43:47 pm »
The sulfur smell has greatly diminished after 2 weeks. Only a subtle hint remained, tastes fine.
Bottled up, lesson learned, was the first and last time that I don't aerate before pitching yeast.

What makes you think that it was due to lack of aeration?

It was the first time ever I didn't aerate the wort prior to pitching the yeast, and this--

http://brulosophy.com/2017/04/10/the-lodo-effect-evaluating-the-low-oxygen-brewing-method-exbeeriment-results/

I think you're jumping to conclusions.   I never purposely aerate and it causes me no problems.  Maybe I missed it...did you use dry or liquid yeast?  Starter?

Agreed, possibly jumping to conclusions.
Dry yeast, no starter, aware dry yeast needs less aeration.
Every time prior, cooled wort was poured into fermenter, violently splashing about.
This one time I transferred slowly with tubing.
Low oxygen causing sulfur smell is the only thing I can come up with.
Smell was obvious, strong, and never experienced before.

Offline denny

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Re: All Grain Witbier
« Reply #34 on: December 31, 2019, 02:47:31 pm »
The sulfur smell has greatly diminished after 2 weeks. Only a subtle hint remained, tastes fine.
Bottled up, lesson learned, was the first and last time that I don't aerate before pitching yeast.

What makes you think that it was due to lack of aeration?

It was the first time ever I didn't aerate the wort prior to pitching the yeast, and this--

http://brulosophy.com/2017/04/10/the-lodo-effect-evaluating-the-low-oxygen-brewing-method-exbeeriment-results/

I think you're jumping to conclusions.   I never purposely aerate and it causes me no problems.  Maybe I missed it...did you use dry or liquid yeast?  Starter?

Agreed, possibly jumping to conclusions.
Dry yeast, no starter, aware dry yeast needs less aeration.
Every time prior, cooled wort was poured into fermenter, violently splashing about.
This one time I transferred slowly with tubing.
Low oxygen causing sulfur smell is the only thing I can come up with.
Smell was obvious, strong, and never experienced before.

Dry yeast needs no aeration.  If you'll allow me to be pedantic (OK I'm gonna do it anyway), the reason we aerate is that the yeast use the O2 to synthesize sterols which keep cell walls flexible to encourage budding.  When dry yeast is produced, growth is stopped during sterols production, so the sterols you need are already there without the need for additional O2.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

Offline BrewBama

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All Grain Witbier
« Reply #35 on: December 31, 2019, 03:00:45 pm »
All a SWAG here: You mention Low O2 brewing. If you used metabisulfate to protect the wort production during the mash you probably should aerate in the fermenter to provide the residual sulfate something to consume it. Without the aeration, I speculate that the sulfate was not “used up” and remained in the finished beer.


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« Last Edit: December 31, 2019, 03:02:19 pm by BrewBama »

Offline denny

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Re: All Grain Witbier
« Reply #36 on: December 31, 2019, 03:39:26 pm »
All a SWAG here: You mention Low O2 brewing. If you used metabisulfate to protect the wort production during the mash you probably should aerate in the fermenter to provide the residual sulfate something to consume it. Without the aeration, I speculate that the sulfate was not “used up” and remained in the finished beer.


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Sulfate or sulfite?
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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Offline Robert

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Re: All Grain Witbier
« Reply #37 on: December 31, 2019, 04:28:44 pm »
All a SWAG here: You mention Low O2 brewing. If you used metabisulfate to protect the wort production during the mash you probably should aerate in the fermenter to provide the residual sulfate something to consume it. Without the aeration, I speculate that the sulfate was not “used up” and remained in the finished beer.


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Sulfate or sulfite?
That would indeed be sulfite Denny.   When it scrubs up the oxygen it is converted into sulfate.   I'm guessing this is another attack of the autocorrect. 
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Offline denny

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Re: All Grain Witbier
« Reply #38 on: December 31, 2019, 05:08:54 pm »
All a SWAG here: You mention Low O2 brewing. If you used metabisulfate to protect the wort production during the mash you probably should aerate in the fermenter to provide the residual sulfate something to consume it. Without the aeration, I speculate that the sulfate was not “used up” and remained in the finished beer.


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Sulfate or sulfite?
That would indeed be sulfite Denny.   When it scrubs up the oxygen it is converted into sulfate.   I'm guessing this is another attack of the autocorrect. 

I remembered enough from my year as a chem major to be certain I was uncertain.  And IIRC, sulfite would create the rotten egg aromas but not sulfate.  Correct?
« Last Edit: December 31, 2019, 05:10:38 pm by denny »
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

Offline Robert

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Re: All Grain Witbier
« Reply #39 on: December 31, 2019, 05:35:37 pm »
I believe you are correct, Denny, but I don't remember enough chemistry to know what the progression is from sulfite to (I presume) H2S.  What I do know is that if you use sulfites to mitigate O2, before pitching it is important to oxygenate more than you normally would (and with dry yeast, normally you wouldn't at all) to ensure you've converted any residual sulfite to sulfate (and left some oxygen for the yeast.)  It's also advisable to wait a few minutes for the reaction to complete before pitching yeast. 

In short, if the OP did use sulfites, then the likely culprit is not oxygenating properly, as he suspected, and it also implies that he could reduce the sulfite dose next time as it apparently wasn't all consumed during the hot side process. 
Rob Stein
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Offline BrewBama

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All Grain Witbier
« Reply #40 on: December 31, 2019, 05:53:59 pm »
Sorry fellas. Wish I could blame it on auto-currupt but I can’t. It’s just me gettin my -ates and -ites mixed up.

Nevertheless, I do remember the Low O2 brewers saying they have to aerate to give a path for ‘sulf-x’ to dissipate. Otherwise they get sulfur bombs.

x = ‘ate’ or ‘ite’ (whichever it is).
« Last Edit: December 31, 2019, 05:58:37 pm by BrewBama »

Offline goose

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Re: All Grain Witbier
« Reply #41 on: January 01, 2020, 07:26:30 am »
All a SWAG here: You mention Low O2 brewing. If you used metabisulfate to protect the wort production during the mash you probably should aerate in the fermenter to provide the residual sulfate something to consume it. Without the aeration, I speculate that the sulfate was not “used up” and remained in the finished beer.


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Sulfate or sulfite?
That would indeed be sulfite Denny.   When it scrubs up the oxygen it is converted into sulfate.   I'm guessing this is another attack of the autocorrect. 

I remembered enough from my year as a chem major to be certain I was uncertain.  And IIRC, sulfite would create the rotten egg aromas but not sulfate.  Correct?

The rotten egg smell is from Hydrogen Sulfide (H2S).  Sulfite has three oxygen atoms surrounding the sulfur atom (SO3) while sulfate has four oxygen atoms surrounding the sulfur atom (SO4).  Both have the same valence (-2).  However, in the presence of a a relatively strong acid, sulfite can give off hydrogen sulfide (H2S) and the characteristic rotten egg smell, sulfate won't because it has more "oxidized" and is a more stable radical.  So Rob and Denny are both right here.

Damn, my nerdiness is showing again!   ;D
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Offline Robert

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Re: All Grain Witbier
« Reply #42 on: January 01, 2020, 07:49:10 am »
All a SWAG here: You mention Low O2 brewing. If you used metabisulfate to protect the wort production during the mash you probably should aerate in the fermenter to provide the residual sulfate something to consume it. Without the aeration, I speculate that the sulfate was not “used up” and remained in the finished beer.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Sulfate or sulfite?
That would indeed be sulfite Denny.   When it scrubs up the oxygen it is converted into sulfate.   I'm guessing this is another attack of the autocorrect. 

I remembered enough from my year as a chem major to be certain I was uncertain.  And IIRC, sulfite would create the rotten egg aromas but not sulfate.  Correct?

The rotten egg smell is from Hydrogen Sulfide (H2S).  Sulfite has three oxygen atoms surrounding the sulfur atom (SO3) while sulfate has four oxygen atoms surrounding the sulfur atom (SO4).  Both have the same valence (-2).  However, in the presence of a a relatively strong acid, sulfite can give off hydrogen sulfide (H2S) and the characteristic rotten egg smell, sulfate won't because it has more "oxidized" and is a more stable radical.  So Rob and Denny are both right here.

Damn, my nerdiness is showing again!   ;D
Goose, I knew you'd come to our rescue.  Any chemistry questions probably have your ears burning, right?  Happy New Year!  Or is that Hoppy Nerd Year?
Rob Stein
Akron, Ohio

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Offline BrewBama

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Re: All Grain Witbier
« Reply #43 on: January 01, 2020, 07:55:58 am »
Goose, I knew you'd come to our rescue.  Any chemistry questions probably have your ears burning, right?  Happy New Year!  Or is that Hoppy Nerd Year?

Thx Goose!  Great explanation (again). Happy New Year!


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Offline mabrungard

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Re: All Grain Witbier
« Reply #44 on: January 01, 2020, 08:36:32 am »
By the way, you can quickly resolve sulfury smell in beer by adding copper to the beer. Practically, suspending a short piece of shiny, sanitized copper in beer will convert the offending sulfur form into sulfate. It only takes a few minutes of swishing to do this.

If you often have this sulfury problem, it’s probably a sign that your wort is copper deficient. Put a short length of copper tube in your kettle and leave it there for all future brewing.
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