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Author Topic: All Grain Witbier  (Read 6058 times)

Offline goose

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Re: All Grain Witbier
« Reply #45 on: January 01, 2020, 10:54:00 am »
All a SWAG here: You mention Low O2 brewing. If you used metabisulfate to protect the wort production during the mash you probably should aerate in the fermenter to provide the residual sulfate something to consume it. Without the aeration, I speculate that the sulfate was not “used up” and remained in the finished beer.


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Sulfate or sulfite?
That would indeed be sulfite Denny.   When it scrubs up the oxygen it is converted into sulfate.   I'm guessing this is another attack of the autocorrect. 

I remembered enough from my year as a chem major to be certain I was uncertain.  And IIRC, sulfite would create the rotten egg aromas but not sulfate.  Correct?

The rotten egg smell is from Hydrogen Sulfide (H2S).  Sulfite has three oxygen atoms surrounding the sulfur atom (SO3) while sulfate has four oxygen atoms surrounding the sulfur atom (SO4).  Both have the same valence (-2).  However, in the presence of a a relatively strong acid, sulfite can give off hydrogen sulfide (H2S) and the characteristic rotten egg smell, sulfate won't because it has more "oxidized" and is a more stable radical.  So Rob and Denny are both right here.

Damn, my nerdiness is showing again!   ;D
Goose, I knew you'd come to our rescue.  Any chemistry questions probably have your ears burning, right?  Happy New Year!  Or is that Hoppy Nerd Year?
Happy New Year to you as well, Rob.  My ears always perk up with. Chemistry question!

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Goose Steingass
Wooster, OH
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Offline goose

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Re: All Grain Witbier
« Reply #46 on: January 01, 2020, 10:55:17 am »
Goose, I knew you'd come to our rescue.  Any chemistry questions probably have your ears burning, right?  Happy New Year!  Or is that Hoppy Nerd Year?

Thx Goose!  Great explanation (again). Happy New Year!


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Same to you Brewbama!

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Goose Steingass
Wooster, OH
Society of Akron Area Zymurgists (SAAZ)
Wayne County Brew Club
Mansfield Brew Club
BJCP Certified

Fire Rooster

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Re: All Grain Witbier
« Reply #47 on: January 02, 2020, 03:30:01 am »
Thank you all, good stuff  :D

Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: All Grain Witbier
« Reply #48 on: January 02, 2020, 07:47:49 am »
All a SWAG here: You mention Low O2 brewing. If you used metabisulfate to protect the wort production during the mash you probably should aerate in the fermenter to provide the residual sulfate something to consume it. Without the aeration, I speculate that the sulfate was not “used up” and remained in the finished beer.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Sulfate or sulfite?
That would indeed be sulfite Denny.   When it scrubs up the oxygen it is converted into sulfate.   I'm guessing this is another attack of the autocorrect. 

I remembered enough from my year as a chem major to be certain I was uncertain.  And IIRC, sulfite would create the rotten egg aromas but not sulfate.  Correct?

The rotten egg smell is from Hydrogen Sulfide (H2S).  Sulfite has three oxygen atoms surrounding the sulfur atom (SO3) while sulfate has four oxygen atoms surrounding the sulfur atom (SO4).  Both have the same valence (-2).  However, in the presence of a a relatively strong acid, sulfite can give off hydrogen sulfide (H2S) and the characteristic rotten egg smell, sulfate won't because it has more "oxidized" and is a more stable radical.  So Rob and Denny are both right here.

Damn, my nerdiness is showing again!   ;D

Our nose has some receptors that have copper. So due to the affinity of copper and sulfur, we can pick up sulfur compounds in parts per billion down to parts per trillion. 

H2S is rotten egg.
SO3 is burnt match.
SO4 is wet drywall.

Many hop aroma compounds contain Sulfur.
Jeff Rankert
AHA Lifetime Member
BJCP National
Ann Arbor Brewers Guild
Home-brewing, not just a hobby, it is a lifestyle!

Offline goose

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Re: All Grain Witbier
« Reply #49 on: January 03, 2020, 08:12:07 am »
All a SWAG here: You mention Low O2 brewing. If you used metabisulfate to protect the wort production during the mash you probably should aerate in the fermenter to provide the residual sulfate something to consume it. Without the aeration, I speculate that the sulfate was not “used up” and remained in the finished beer.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Sulfate or sulfite?
That would indeed be sulfite Denny.   When it scrubs up the oxygen it is converted into sulfate.   I'm guessing this is another attack of the autocorrect. 

I remembered enough from my year as a chem major to be certain I was uncertain.  And IIRC, sulfite would create the rotten egg aromas but not sulfate.  Correct?

The rotten egg smell is from Hydrogen Sulfide (H2S).  Sulfite has three oxygen atoms surrounding the sulfur atom (SO3) while sulfate has four oxygen atoms surrounding the sulfur atom (SO4).  Both have the same valence (-2).  However, in the presence of a a relatively strong acid, sulfite can give off hydrogen sulfide (H2S) and the characteristic rotten egg smell, sulfate won't because it has more "oxidized" and is a more stable radical.  So Rob and Denny are both right here.

Damn, my nerdiness is showing again!   ;D

Our nose has some receptors that have copper. So due to the affinity of copper and sulfur, we can pick up sulfur compounds in parts per billion down to parts per trillion. 

H2S is rotten egg.
SO3 is burnt match.
SO4 is wet drywall.

Many hop aroma compounds contain Sulfur.

Good comparison, Jeff!

And yes, some lager yeasts, in particularly 2124, will give off a sulfury smell when fermenting.  It scrubs out of the beer during fermentation and the yeast will clean some of it up as well
Goose Steingass
Wooster, OH
Society of Akron Area Zymurgists (SAAZ)
Wayne County Brew Club
Mansfield Brew Club
BJCP Certified

Fire Rooster

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Re: All Grain Witbier
« Reply #50 on: January 05, 2020, 05:39:38 am »
By the way, you can quickly resolve sulfury smell in beer by adding copper to the beer. Practically, suspending a short piece of shiny, sanitized copper in beer will convert the offending sulfur form into sulfate. It only takes a few minutes of swishing to do this.

If you often have this sulfury problem, it’s probably a sign that your wort is copper deficient. Put a short length of copper tube in your kettle and leave it there for all future brewing.

Being curious, next batch of beer will have Copper (Cu) monitored.
I don't think Cu is an issue, will check anyway.

1. Currently water has a Cu level between .00? - .0? PPM, my test kit doesn't go that low.  Can start detecting around .1 PPM.
2. Cu will be checked after grain mash, prior to boil.
3. If still undetectable, a small cleaned/sanitized shiny piece of copper plumbing pipe will be placed in hop spider during boil.
4. Cu will be checked after that.

https://www.copper.org/publications/newsletters/innovations/2006/07/copper_makes_beer_better.html

http://www.craftbrewersconference.com/wp-content/uploads/2015_presentations/R0900_Ruth_Martin.pdf

https://www.amazon.com/API-250-Test-Freshwater-Aquarium-Water/dp/B0006JDWH8/ref=pd_sim_199_5/143-9419878-5374714?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B000255NAK&pd_rd_r=aa1bfaf1-1afe-4762-8428-51439cefd96f&pd_rd_w=7NPkd&pd_rd_wg=dVwuu&pf_rd_p=04d27813-a1f2-4e7b-a32b-b5ab374ce3f9&pf_rd_r=7YCD5HBFTZW49A1AAX32&refRID=7YCD5HBFTZW49A1AAX32&th=1
« Last Edit: January 06, 2020, 01:38:38 am by Fire Rooster »

Offline James Jacobson

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Re: All Grain Witbier
« Reply #51 on: January 05, 2020, 10:32:27 am »
I just did a "tritbier" yesterday and used 9g of coriander, and 39g of fresh orange zest which is what I got from 3 oranges. I used cara cara oranges which are sweet but I wasn't really going for traditional since I also added 3 oz of spruce tips.

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Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: All Grain Witbier
« Reply #52 on: January 05, 2020, 11:35:33 am »
All a SWAG here: You mention Low O2 brewing. If you used metabisulfate to protect the wort production during the mash you probably should aerate in the fermenter to provide the residual sulfate something to consume it. Without the aeration, I speculate that the sulfate was not “used up” and remained in the finished beer.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Sulfate or sulfite?
That would indeed be sulfite Denny.   When it scrubs up the oxygen it is converted into sulfate.   I'm guessing this is another attack of the autocorrect. 

I remembered enough from my year as a chem major to be certain I was uncertain.  And IIRC, sulfite would create the rotten egg aromas but not sulfate.  Correct?

The rotten egg smell is from Hydrogen Sulfide (H2S).  Sulfite has three oxygen atoms surrounding the sulfur atom (SO3) while sulfate has four oxygen atoms surrounding the sulfur atom (SO4).  Both have the same valence (-2).  However, in the presence of a a relatively strong acid, sulfite can give off hydrogen sulfide (H2S) and the characteristic rotten egg smell, sulfate won't because it has more "oxidized" and is a more stable radical.  So Rob and Denny are both right here.

Damn, my nerdiness is showing again!   ;D

Our nose has some receptors that have copper. So due to the affinity of copper and sulfur, we can pick up sulfur compounds in parts per billion down to parts per trillion. 

H2S is rotten egg.
SO3 is burnt match.
SO4 is wet drywall.

Many hop aroma compounds contain Sulfur.

Good comparison, Jeff!

And yes, some lager yeasts, in particularly 2124, will give off a sulfury smell when fermenting.  It scrubs out of the beer during fermentation and the yeast will clean some of it up as well

SO2 might be the burnt match smell. Need to look that up.
Jeff Rankert
AHA Lifetime Member
BJCP National
Ann Arbor Brewers Guild
Home-brewing, not just a hobby, it is a lifestyle!

Offline goose

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Re: All Grain Witbier
« Reply #53 on: January 06, 2020, 07:28:39 am »
All a SWAG here: You mention Low O2 brewing. If you used metabisulfate to protect the wort production during the mash you probably should aerate in the fermenter to provide the residual sulfate something to consume it. Without the aeration, I speculate that the sulfate was not “used up” and remained in the finished beer.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Sulfate or sulfite?
That would indeed be sulfite Denny.   When it scrubs up the oxygen it is converted into sulfate.   I'm guessing this is another attack of the autocorrect. 

I remembered enough from my year as a chem major to be certain I was uncertain.  And IIRC, sulfite would create the rotten egg aromas but not sulfate.  Correct?

The rotten egg smell is from Hydrogen Sulfide (H2S).  Sulfite has three oxygen atoms surrounding the sulfur atom (SO3) while sulfate has four oxygen atoms surrounding the sulfur atom (SO4).  Both have the same valence (-2).  However, in the presence of a a relatively strong acid, sulfite can give off hydrogen sulfide (H2S) and the characteristic rotten egg smell, sulfate won't because it has more "oxidized" and is a more stable radical.  So Rob and Denny are both right here.

Damn, my nerdiness is showing again!   ;D

Our nose has some receptors that have copper. So due to the affinity of copper and sulfur, we can pick up sulfur compounds in parts per billion down to parts per trillion. 

H2S is rotten egg.
SO3 is burnt match.
SO4 is wet drywall.

Many hop aroma compounds contain Sulfur.

Good comparison, Jeff!

And yes, some lager yeasts, in particularly 2124, will give off a sulfury smell when fermenting.  It scrubs out of the beer during fermentation and the yeast will clean some of it up as well

SO2 might be the burnt match smell. Need to look that up.
You are right, Jeff SO2 is the burnt match smell.

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Goose Steingass
Wooster, OH
Society of Akron Area Zymurgists (SAAZ)
Wayne County Brew Club
Mansfield Brew Club
BJCP Certified

Fire Rooster

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Re: All Grain Witbier
« Reply #54 on: January 26, 2020, 02:40:53 pm »
First taste, first Witbier, actually tastes pretty good,
bad smell all gone.
4.5 Gallon 
5 lbs Weyermann German Pilsner Malt
3 lb Briess Red Wheat Malt
8 oz Lightly Crushed Toasted Organic Steel Cut Oats
     
(50min) ½ oz Centennial-Pellet (8.6%)
(30 min) ½ oz Cluster-Pellet (7.4%)
(5min)10 Grams Coriander, lightly crushed & lightly toasted in frying pan
(5min)10 Grams Organic Dried Sweet Orange Peel
Nottingham
3-week ferment, 4-week bottle condition @73F
« Last Edit: January 27, 2020, 06:08:11 am by Fire Rooster »

Offline silveiraedgar

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Re: All Grain Witbier
« Reply #55 on: January 26, 2020, 05:36:22 pm »
Just made a witbier last Wednesday.
47.5% Pilsner Malt
47.5% Flaked wheat
5% rolled Oats
Saaz @ 60’ just to get to 16 ibus
A pinch of coriander @ 5’
And I am making a orange zest extract with vodka, to add at the beer prior to keg.


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Offline fredthecat

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Re: All Grain Witbier
« Reply #56 on: January 27, 2020, 09:50:14 pm »
fresh citrus is a hell of a thing. sadly i am now far from it, but ive found all kinds of citrus can work without fail in different brews.

re: the original question - many others have already answered it. in my experience a flavourful sweet orange works fine