[tommymorris]

I could be wrong here... But
It seems to me the oxygen exposure with bottling would be about the same as canning. I believe as far as the quality of the beer in the package it's more about light exposure - preventing light-struck beer "skunking" by canning, which eliminates 100% of light, which can't be achieved even with a brown bottle. From a vendor's standpoint though is the equally important factor of cost - bottles weigh significantly more than cans and shipping a truck load of cans costs the seller less than shipping the same liquid volume in bottles.

If someone can give more information on how it is that there's more chance for dissolved oxygen with bottling versus canning I'd be interested in that explanation.

I am no expert, but I think bottle caps let in more oxygen over time than can lids.

[ravenwater]

"I am no expert, but I think bottle caps let in more oxygen over time than can lids." - -

This I won't dispute - I believe it definitely can be true that you can get some oxygen creep through a cap over time. I was just wondering about the thought of any significant difference in oxygen uptake at the time of packaging - bottle versus canning.

[Die Beerery]

"I am no expert, but I think bottle caps let in more oxygen over time than can lids." - -

This I won't dispute - I believe it definitely can be true that you can get some oxygen creep through a cap over time. I was just wondering about the thought of any significant difference in oxygen uptake at the time of packaging - bottle versus canning.

The standard professional macro brewery bottle fill is a double vacuum/ purge cycle.  Where as the standard can fill is a purged counter pressure.  They are similar in terms of TPO, but the bottle is lower.  However  the cap leaks much faster than the can.  I’m taking real breweries, not your local “commercial” craft beer. 


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[KellerBrauer]

I could be wrong here... But
It seems to me the oxygen exposure with bottling would be about the same as canning. I believe as far as the quality of the beer in the package it's more about light exposure - preventing light-struck beer "skunking" by canning, which eliminates 100% of light, which can't be achieved even with a brown bottle. From a vendor's standpoint though is the equally important factor of cost - bottles weigh significantly more than cans and shipping a truck load of cans costs the seller less than shipping the same liquid volume in bottles.

If someone can give more information on how it is that there's more chance for dissolved oxygen with bottling versus canning I'd be interested in that explanation.

I am no expert, but I think bottle caps let in more oxygen over time than can lids.

I guess I’m really confused.  How can a bottle cap “leak oxygen” into a bottle when the bottle has pressure inside?  That makes absolutely no sense and is not logical.  Further, if the can would “leak”, one would know it when the bottle is opened; a person would not hear that escape of the CO₂ escaping from the bottle.  So, if I open a bottle or can that is not pressurized with carbonation, I’m assuming the beer is flat.

[Die Beerery]

I could be wrong here... But
It seems to me the oxygen exposure with bottling would be about the same as canning. I believe as far as the quality of the beer in the package it's more about light exposure - preventing light-struck beer "skunking" by canning, which eliminates 100% of light, which can't be achieved even with a brown bottle. From a vendor's standpoint though is the equally important factor of cost - bottles weigh significantly more than cans and shipping a truck load of cans costs the seller less than shipping the same liquid volume in bottles.

If someone can give more information on how it is that there's more chance for dissolved oxygen with bottling versus canning I'd be interested in that explanation.

I am no expert, but I think bottle caps let in more oxygen over time than can lids.

I guess I’m really confused.  How can a bottle cap “leak oxygen” into a bottle when the bottle has pressure inside?  That makes absolutely no sense and is not logical.  Further, if the can would “leak”, one would know it when the bottle is opened; a person would not hear that escape of the CO₂ escaping from the bottle.  So, if I open a bottle or can that is not pressurized with carbonation, I’m assuming the beer is flat.

Your sir, need to look into the laws of partial pressures, and Ideal gas laws.. SCIENCE!

[KellerBrauer]

I guess I’m really confused.  How can a bottle cap “leak oxygen” into a bottle when the bottle has pressure inside?  That makes absolutely no sense and is not logical.  Further, if the can would “leak”, one would know it when the bottle is opened; a person would not hear that escape of the CO₂ escaping from the bottle.  So, if I open a bottle or can that is not pressurized with carbonation, I’m assuming the beer is flat.

Your sir, need to look into the laws of partial pressures, and Ideal gas laws.. SCIENCE!

I understand pressures and the fundamentals of various gases and their affects on various other substances.  I also understand science and physics.  So I'm not sure if you are being serious or sarcastic.  In any case, your response is not an answer.  Perhaps you can offer a serious explanation as to how oxygen is going to enter a bottle, or can, that's under CO₂ pressure?  Maybe I missed something??

[Die Beerery]

I guess I’m really confused.  How can a bottle cap “leak oxygen” into a bottle when the bottle has pressure inside?  That makes absolutely no sense and is not logical.  Further, if the can would “leak”, one would know it when the bottle is opened; a person would not hear that escape of the CO₂ escaping from the bottle.  So, if I open a bottle or can that is not pressurized with carbonation, I’m assuming the beer is flat.

Your sir, need to look into the laws of partial pressures, and Ideal gas laws.. SCIENCE!

I understand pressures and the fundamentals of various gases and their affects on various other substances.  I also understand science and physics.  So I'm not sure if you are being serious or sarcastic.  In any case, your response is not an answer.  Perhaps you can offer a serious explanation as to how oxygen is going to enter a bottle, or can, that's under CO₂ pressure?  Maybe I missed something??

But you don't though. Because if you did, you would not be asking these questions.

The ideal gas laws, and the laws of partial pressures, are the literal answer.

[denny]

I guess I’m really confused.  How can a bottle cap “leak oxygen” into a bottle when the bottle has pressure inside?  That makes absolutely no sense and is not logical.  Further, if the can would “leak”, one would know it when the bottle is opened; a person would not hear that escape of the CO₂ escaping from the bottle.  So, if I open a bottle or can that is not pressurized with carbonation, I’m assuming the beer is flat.

Your sir, need to look into the laws of partial pressures, and Ideal gas laws.. SCIENCE!

I understand pressures and the fundamentals of various gases and their affects on various other substances.  I also understand science and physics.  So I'm not sure if you are being serious or sarcastic.  In any case, your response is not an answer.  Perhaps you can offer a serious explanation as to how oxygen is going to enter a bottle, or can, that's under CO₂ pressure?  Maybe I missed something??

But you don't though. Because if you did, you would not be asking these questions.

The ideal gas laws, and the laws of partial pressures, are the literal answer.

Could you just answer his question?

[Die Beerery]

I guess I’m really confused.  How can a bottle cap “leak oxygen” into a bottle when the bottle has pressure inside?  That makes absolutely no sense and is not logical.  Further, if the can would “leak”, one would know it when the bottle is opened; a person would not hear that escape of the CO₂ escaping from the bottle.  So, if I open a bottle or can that is not pressurized with carbonation, I’m assuming the beer is flat.

Your sir, need to look into the laws of partial pressures, and Ideal gas laws.. SCIENCE!

I understand pressures and the fundamentals of various gases and their affects on various other substances.  I also understand science and physics.  So I'm not sure if you are being serious or sarcastic.  In any case, your response is not an answer.  Perhaps you can offer a serious explanation as to how oxygen is going to enter a bottle, or can, that's under CO₂ pressure?  Maybe I missed something??

But you don't though. Because if you did, you would not be asking these questions.

The ideal gas laws, and the laws of partial pressures, are the literal answer.

Could you just answer his question?

Did I fall hit my head and end up in bizzaro world?

I have answered it twice.. Now 3 times?

Obviously now I’m missing something. 

[tommymorris]

Dalton’s law states that the total pressure in a closed system containing a mixture of gases is equal to the sum of the partial pressures of each of the individual gases.

The gas molecules are so far apart from one another that each acts independently.

There is presumably very little oxygen in the head space of a bottle of beer. So the oxygen partial pressure is low. The primary partial pressure in the bottle is from CO2.

The amount of oxygen in open air leads to about 3 psi partial pressure of oxygen outside the bottle.

So, the oxygen partial pressure outside the bottle is higher than the oxygen partial pressure in the headspace of the bottle.

This net decrease in pressure from outside to inside the bottle leads oxygen to want to get into the bottle. The cap forms a seal to minimize oxygen ingress (and CO2 escape) and some caps are designed to absorb oxygen to limit the damage.

Apparently cans have a better seal than bottles.

[BrewBama]

Well done sir. Thank you!


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[erockrph]

Dalton’s law states that the total pressure in a closed system containing a mixture of gases is equal to the sum of the partial pressures of each of the individual gases.

The gas molecules are so far apart from one another that each acts independently.

There is presumably very little oxygen in the head space of a bottle of beer. So the oxygen partial pressure is low. The primary partial pressure in the bottle is from CO2.

The amount of oxygen in open air leads to about 3 psi partial pressure of oxygen outside the bottle.

So, the oxygen partial pressure outside the bottle is higher than the oxygen partial pressure in headspace of the bottle.

This net decrease in pressure from outside to inside the bottle leads oxygen to want to get into the bottle. The cap forms a seal to minimize oxygen ingress (and CO2 escape) and some caps are designed to absorb oxygen to limit the damage. But, apparently cans have a better seal than bottles.

And the tl:dr version is that the pressure of CO2 is independent of the pressure of oxygen. There is very, very little pressure of oxygen inside the bottle, and very large pressure of oxygen outside the bottle. The cap or can seal is not 100% impermeable. Oxygen will slowly diffuse through over time.

And while CO2 will diffuse out of the bottle as well, you will notice the effects of a small amount of extra O2 sooner than a small amount of lower CO2

[Die Beerery]

Don’t leave Fick out.


So you wanted an explanation of HOW gas laws work, not the actual mechanism. 


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[KellerBrauer]

Dalton’s law states that the total pressure in a closed system containing a mixture of gases is equal to the sum of the partial pressures of each of the individual gases.

The gas molecules are so far apart from one another that each acts independently.

There is presumably very little oxygen in the head space of a bottle of beer. So the oxygen partial pressure is low. The primary partial pressure in the bottle is from CO2.

The amount of oxygen in open air leads to about 3 psi partial pressure of oxygen outside the bottle.

So, the oxygen partial pressure outside the bottle is higher than the oxygen partial pressure in headspace of the bottle.

This net decrease in pressure from outside to inside the bottle leads oxygen to want to get into the bottle. The cap forms a seal to minimize oxygen ingress (and CO2 escape) and some caps are designed to absorb oxygen to limit the damage. But, apparently cans have a better seal than bottles.

And the tl:dr version is that the pressure of CO2 is independent of the pressure of oxygen. There is very, very little pressure of oxygen inside the bottle, and very large pressure of oxygen outside the bottle. The cap or can seal is not 100% impermeable. Oxygen will slowly diffuse through over time.

And while CO2 will diffuse out of the bottle as well, you will notice the effects of a small amount of extra O2 sooner than a small amount of lower CO2

That is fascinating indeed.  So, If I understand, because there are only a few molecules of oxygen inside the bottle and a greater quantity of oxygen in atmospheric pressure, the pressure outside (atmospheric) will attempt equalize the "like" gas inside the bottle?  And, likewise, CO₂ inside the bottle will attempt to equalize with "like" gas in atmospheric?  That is fascinating information I have never heard or read about.  I'm going to read into Dalton's Law.


I'm thinking Die Beerery wasn't able to better explain this complex principle because he simply couldn't!

Well done tommymorris & erockrph!  Thank you!

[Die Beerery]

Sorry, I didn't have the time nor the crayons to explain it to you.


Here is an even more in depth look at said gas laws, that are on my blog. But hey, what do I know.

Bottle Cap ingress
http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/brewing-methods/bottle-cap-oxygen-ingress-real/

CO2 purity
http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/brewing-methods/carbon-dioxide-purity/

Purging
http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/brewing-methods/kegging-care-guide-purging-transferring-stabilizing-finished-beer/

Serving
http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/brewing-methods/beer-serving-oxygen-ingress/