[fredthecat]

If you can get away from exposed elements in the wort, electric rocks.

what do you mean by this? i think i get an idea, but am not sure exactly.

[majorvices]

The BrewZilla has the elements enclosed in the bottom of the kettle. It's really easy to clean and no scorching.

The electric kettle I made a few years ago used low density 4500W  elements (45 gallon kettle) that were a PITA to clean. They were essentially hot water heater elements mounted to the inside of the kettle. As Sacch hinted at, if you forgot to turn them off they would melt, though were also cheap to replace. But that's not what I hated about them. I simply hated cleaning them. And I had ruined a couple batches that weren't cleaned properly due to scorching the old gunk caked on the elements.

That said, I use a professional kettle for several months (3.5 bbl) with stainless elements that were exposed and they came clean without scrubbing (with a CiP) - but were a lot more surface ares than the 4500 watt elements. And I liked using that kettle, so maybe it just depends on the elements you use.

[fredthecat]

The BrewZilla has the elements enclosed in the bottom of the kettle. It's really easy to clean and no scorching.

The electric kettle I made a few years ago used low density 4500W  elements (45 gallon kettle) that were a PITA to clean. They were essentially hot water heater elements mounted to the inside of the kettle. As Sacch hinted at, if you forgot to turn them off they would melt, though were also cheap to replace. But that's not what I hated about them. I simply hated cleaning them. And I had ruined a couple batches that weren't cleaned properly due to scorching the old gunk caked on the elements.

That said, I use a professional kettle for several months (3.5 bbl) with stainless elements that were exposed and they came clean without scrubbing (with a CiP) - but were a lot more surface ares than the 4500 watt elements. And I liked using that kettle, so maybe it just depends on the elements you use.

ok, i understand. wow huge sizes. awesome to try making your own. are you a nano brewery?

[Saccharomyces]

I am switching back to using real TSP (not the TSP PF stuff) to clean my gear.  The cleaning power of real TSP blows everything that is commercially available in the home brewing market space out of the water, PBW is anemic compared to it.  TSP is made by first neutralizing phosphoric acid using sodium carbonate (a.k.a. washing soda).  The result is then reacted with sodium hydroxide, which forms trisodium phosphate and water (i.e., it is a condensation reaction).  A little TSP goes a long way.

[majorvices]

The BrewZilla has the elements enclosed in the bottom of the kettle. It's really easy to clean and no scorching.

The electric kettle I made a few years ago used low density 4500W  elements (45 gallon kettle) that were a PITA to clean. They were essentially hot water heater elements mounted to the inside of the kettle. As Sacch hinted at, if you forgot to turn them off they would melt, though were also cheap to replace. But that's not what I hated about them. I simply hated cleaning them. And I had ruined a couple batches that weren't cleaned properly due to scorching the old gunk caked on the elements.

That said, I use a professional kettle for several months (3.5 bbl) with stainless elements that were exposed and they came clean without scrubbing (with a CiP) - but were a lot more surface ares than the 4500 watt elements. And I liked using that kettle, so maybe it just depends on the elements you use.

ok, i understand. wow huge sizes. awesome to try making your own. are you a nano brewery?

I started Yellowhammer Brewing in Huntsville, AL about 10 years ago. I'm still an owner but had a huge falling out with one of my fellow founders so I left. I've worked for a few breweries.

Yellowhammer started nano but when I walked away we had 20 bbl size brewhouse and 60 bbls tanks.

[majorvices]

I am switching back to using real TSP (not the TSP PF stuff) to clean my gear.  The cleaning power of real TSP blows everything that is commercially available in the home brewing market space out of the water, PBW is anemic compared to it.  TSP is made by first neutralizing phosphoric acid using sodium carbonate (a.k.a. washing soda).  The result is then reacted with sodium hydroxide, which forms trisodium phosphate and water (i.e., it is a condensation reaction).  A little TSP goes a long way.

Yeah it is a lot more powerful for sure. Really bad for the environment though.

[denny]

So you haven't tried it?  Reality often astonishes theory, Mark.  I've used one many times and I AM impressed. Theory is great, but we brew on reality.

What I am saying that the power increase going to 240VAC is not worth the trouble.   The big difference when going from 120VAC to 240VAC occurs at about 3500W (which exceeds the power level available on the average Australian 220V circuit).  The difference in heating times between 2400W (I am assuming that the Grainfather element is rated at 2000W on a 220VAC circuit) and 3500W with 5-gallon all-grain batch size liquid volumes is more than ten minutes for most heating operations.  I consider 3500W to be the minimum power level needed to justify 240VAC operation.  What Grainfather is offering with the G30 220 setup can be accomplished on a 120V NEMA 5-20 circuit; therefore, the device could be used in most U.S. kitchens without need for a 240VAC outlet.  In my humble option, Grainfather need to rethink the Grainfather in the U.S. market.  Most AIO brewers will more than likely brew in their kitchens because that is where they have running water.   The G30 220 was a missed opportunity.

Having gone from a 120 to 240v Grainfather, I can empirically tell you you are wrong.  There is a very noticeable difference.

[kgs]

This thread surfaced while I had been ruminating over giving away my propane burner (used a couple times, not in the last five years), 8-gallon kettle (not used as often as my 5-gallon because the 8-gallon is so heavy), and 9-gallon cooler mash tun. I've used my Mash and Boil twice and it really sells itself. All together, it's a lot less fuss for my 3-gallon no-sparge batches, in a much more compact footprint. The only physical challenge is lifting the basket post-mash, and I got a rowing machine last month to diversify my workouts so perhaps in a while I'll have the "guns" for that not to be as much of a problem. ;-) 

Oddly the piece I would find it most difficult to part with is the cooler, maybe because I associate it with the magic of mashing and the delicious bready fragrance that would hit my face as I opened it every few minutes to stir the mash -- even though lugging it around post-mash, getting the spent grain out, and then washing it is not something I miss at all, and I certainly still enjoy the mash in my AIO. There's no rush for me to divest of all this stuff, but there may be a point at which it would be hard to find takers, even as giveaways.

I wonder if the "recruitment" phase for new homebrewers will continue to be the traditional kit many of us started with (I picked up the hobby 12 years ago), and also what the "retention" phase will look like. Cost-wise an AIO is a higher level of entry, but then again there are no $85 rowing machines either.  And if you do need to brew outside on a propane burner and don't happen to own a large kettle, the cost differential gets even smaller.

[reverseapachemaster]

I don't know that propane is going to become a relic but it's definitely moving out of being at the forefront of brewing. For less than ten gallon batches I can't see brewers opting for the cooler/burner setup when they could buy the increasingly cheaper electric systems. A lot of brewers are regularly brewing smaller than five gallon batches which makes stovetop brewing accessible even on an electric stove. Alternatively, for brewers of those fifteen or twenty gallon batches I think we are a long way off from an electric option at an affordable cost.

I am generally a smaller batch brewer with a gas stove which means I can do my usual 1-3 gallon batches indoors. I have a burner but in almost twelve years of brewing I'd be surprised if I have used it more than twenty times. I think I've filled my propane tank twice and it ran out the second time four or five years ago without a refill. I plan to get some new blending projects going which will need the firepower of a burner but it will probably go another five years before it gets refilled.

[majorvices]

For me, currently, a dedicated 220V is out of the question so for anything larger than 6-7 gallons it's gonna be propane.

[Saccharomyces]

Yeah it is a lot more powerful for sure. Really bad for the environment though.

The major problem with TSP is the phosphate component.  It can cause algae blooms if it ends up in rivers and lakes.  That is the reason why phosphates were removed from detergents.  However, the phosphate argument is moot when one is on septic, as the effluent is drained into one's drain field, which is usually covered by grass.  Phosphates are great for root growth.  TSP is less dangerous to a septic tank than chlorine bleach.  If we want to talk about a toxic compound, then sodium metasilicate is up there.  That is the main ingredient that separates PBW from Oxyclean.  It is also what is sold as TSP/90 and TSP PF, which are both TSP substitutes.

In practice, the amount of TSP used to clean home brewing equipment is quite small.    We are talking about one to two tablespoons per five gallons of water.  The major problem with TSP in a home brewery is the pH, which is 12, making it almost as caustic as pure sodium hydroxide, which has a pH of 14. While not mandatory, gloves prevent TSP solution from drying out one's hands.

Believe it or not, there are brewery cleaning products that contain TSP.   For example, the reason why Craft Meister Keg & Carboy Cleaning Tablets clean so well is because they contain TSP (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwjz8ZiRvKPuAhVDjlkKHTGJBXcQFjABegQIBRAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nationalchemicals.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2020%2F05%2FSDS-CM-Keg-Carboy-Tab-7_16.pdf&usg=AOvVaw1ezF8yipjW3ASaBF6X5MvD).  My first use of TSP was to clean soda kegs.  Back in the early nineties, there was a guy out of Minnesota that sold used soda kegs and kegging systems (that was before soda kegs and kegging systems were sold by most LBHS).  He recommended CTSP for cleaning kegs. CTSP is chlorinated TSP.  CTSP cleans and sanitizes in one step.   It may not be the best choice for sanitizing stainless steel, but it works like a charm.  It will absolutely render the nastiest, soda has been sitting in it for years used soda keg spotless.

[majorvices]

Wildly changing the subject here but for homebrew stuff regular old oxiclean works for me for what I have. Commercial brewing caustic and acids. I have used a product called "Brewer's Ease" in a commercial setting that may have has TSP  not sure - it was powdered like PBW and it worked amazing.

[waltsmalt]

I went electric a few years ago and it was what kept me brewing.  In Minnesota, brewing outside in the middle of winter was killing me.  Now, it’s just walk downstairs and it’s 68-72 year round.  Spent some money to do it, but I wonder if I would still be brewing if I was carrying everything out to the garage and freezing for 5+ hours. 

I’m using exposed elements and so far I just give it an annual clean and a spray after every brew.  I haven’t noticed any problems with off flavors at this point in time.  However, I’m doing about 12 batches per year so I’m not working it overtime.

Good discussion and shows how much this hobby has evolved. 

[Saccharomyces]

Having gone from a 120 to 240v Grainfather, I can empirically tell you you are wrong.  There is a very noticeable difference.

I am not saying that there is not a noticeable difference.  Going from 2000W or 2400W to 3500W is also a noticeable difference.  What I am saying is that to require 240VAC service for a 2000W device is a missed opportunity here in the United States because the average kitchen circuit can provide that much power on a 120VAC circuit.  If one inspects one's breaker box, there should be a circuit labeled "kitchen countertop" or "kitchen outlets."  More often than not, the breaker will have a value of "20" on it.  Unless some nutcase installed a 20A breaker on a 14-gauge wire run, that means that the circuit was run with 12-gauge wire.  Twelve-gauge wire can carry 20A of electricity, which means that it is capable of handling devices that require up to 120 * 20 = 2400W of power.   The reason why kitchen circuits are 20A is so that more than one appliance can be operated at the same time.  The receptacles on a kitchen circuit are usually NEMA 5-15, which are 120VAC/15A receptacles.  However, they all have a pass-through current rating of 20A, even the GFCI outlet.  What this means is that one can replace a NEMA 5-15R duplex receptacle with a NEMA 5-20R duplex receptacle in order to accommodate the NEMA 5-20P plug, which has one of the blades at 90 degrees to the other blade.  One can tell a NEMA 5-20R receptacle from a NEMA 5-15R receptacle because one of the blade holes on the receptacle is a "T."  This configuration allows a NEMA 5-20R receptacle to accept NEMA 5-15P and NEMA 5-20P plugs.  In many jurisdictions, NEMA 5-20R receptacles are code on a kitchen circuit.

NEMA 5-15R 120VAC/15A





NEMA 5-20R 120VAC/20A





By the way, the first number denotes the supply voltage and pin-out.  A number of "5" means 120VAC hot, neutral, and protective ground.    A number of "6" denotes 240VAC hot, hot, and protective ground (e.g., a NEMA 6-20R socket has hot, hot, and protective ground)


NEMA 6-20R



Please note that this socket also has a "T" blade hole.  That is so that it can accept NEMA 6-15P (240VAC/15A) plugs that have two horizontal blades.

[ynotbrusum]

The element size was part of the reason that I went with the Anvil Foundry. 

Features:
Switchable Between 120V 1600W and 240V 2800W for Faster Heating & Better Boils.

I do have an electric 18 gallon electric BIAB set up from Stout Tanks fitted with 240V/5500W element for larger batches.