[Jayborracho]

Hey all, has anyone brewed a Pilsner/lager with just straight RO or distilled and just the minerals added by the malt? Been brewing for a while and have always adjusted my water profiles but this idea had me thinkin. From my understanding ( I might be totally wrong) adding the 20-50 ppm CA doesn’t actually make “soft water” as reported by water softness calculators, so wouldn’t it be better to brew with minimal water additions? And as far as ph goes it wouldn’t be lowered to ideal range without acid but has anyone just let it go without lowering it to see if it makes a difference in lagers?

[denny]

My understanding and experience is that pils malt is too light to do much to lower pH.  As to the minerals, I think you may be setting yourself up for a bland beer, but there's only one way to find out.

[RC]

Using RO/distilled water and not adding any minerals means the wort will probably be deficient in zinc. By all means try your experiment, but perhaps add yeast nutrient or zinc sulfate to the kettle or (better yet) the fermenter. You'll know if it was lacking enough zinc if your beer tastes like green apples, i.e. acetaldehyde. That said, reality often astonishes theory and the beer might turn out great without any zinc added.

[Richard]

I agree with Denny that the pH will probably be higher than the recommended range for the enzymes to convert starch to sugar. That means that the enzymes will not work as well, but if you use malt that has a very high diastatic power in the first place you might be OK. Mecca Grade Pelton Pilsner malt is very high in enzyme content at 180-200 Lintner, so it might be fine even if the pH is off. Viking Pilsner is at the other end of the scale, listing only that it is higher than a minimum of 76 Linter, so you might have conversion problems with that malt.

[dmtaylor]

I am strongly considering just such an experiment on my next batch, American pils. If I remember I will try to come back for updates within the next several weeks. I believe the beer will turn out just fine and hope it will have increased white grape character based on something I once heard (sorry I do not recall where) which is why I will aim high on mash pH, about 5.7-5.8.

[hopfenundmalz]

You could do a decoction with a long acid rest. But why?

[4dogbrewer]

I use 75% RO water, 25% well water and 2% acid malt with no brewing salts. My Kolsch and Lagers taste fine.

[Bilsch]

Using demineralized water will create a wort diffident in calcium and will only make it more difficult to get your mash pH inline as well as hurting your conversion and probably result in a beer that won't drop bright.

[Jayborracho]

Thanks guys for all the insight, haven’t had the chance to brew yet but will soon, another question that popped into my head.

I do no sparge so would that kind of help out against any astringent properties from the higher ph since I wouldn’t be rinsing the grains?

[denny]

Thanks guys for all the insight, haven’t had the chance to brew yet but will soon, another question that popped into my head.

I do no sparge so would that kind of help out against any astringent properties from the higher ph since I wouldn’t be rinsing the grains?

Seems like using more water would mean the pH was further away since the grain wouldn't be able to buffer as well..

[Silver_Is_Money]

Seems like using more water would mean the pH was further away since the grain wouldn't be able to buffer as well..

This proves to not be the case.  A fairly extensive series of tests undertaken by D.M. Riffe (in a paper titled: 'A Homebrewing Perspective on Mash pH III: Distilled-Water pH and Buffering Capacity of the Grist') indicated that:

First, we see that pH is rather independent of mash thickness (which is more-or-less true for all malts we have measured).

The tests consistently indicated that malt buffering is of sufficient strength that pHDI and mash pH are effectively unchanged as mash thickness ranges from 2.5 L/Kg. to 8 L/kg.

[dmtaylor]

Update, IF anyone might be interested (if not, ignore):

As I had indicated above, I have followed through on brewing my American pilsners, but decided to use tap water instead of distilled, to keep the mash pH nice and high, as an experiment.  Zero salt additions beyond those present in malt and water.  Water report for Two Rivers, WI is available at the bottom of: https://www.rackers.org/local-water-quality/

I guess my experiment "worked" so far -- the alkalinity in my tap water kept the mash pH around 5.9 as I intended.  I still got 86% brewhouse efficiency, which was less than the 94% anticipated... but beyond mid-80s, who cares, right?!  I got an OG of 1.036 (aimed for 1.040) which I think is alright for an American lite style, should be good drinking this summer, and I split the batch between WLP940 Mexican lager and S-189.  The WLP940 is fermenting away in my basement at about 56 F, and the S-189 is upstairs with me here at 68 F (yet another experiment, let's see what this yeast does at room temp).

The wort tasted delicious and was reasonably clear.  I don't expect any very unusual characteristics from either of these beers, despite the lack of pH control, high efficiency, or even the high ferm temp from S-189.  I can't wait to see what happens with these.  Talk about short & shoddy.  Oh yeah and mash time was 50 minutes, boil time 75 minutes.  About 10-11 IBUs but the hops are old homegrowns from 2017 so I can really only guess.  But like I said, wort tasted great.

Experiments like this are so much fun.     If I remember, I'll report more results later.

[Jayborracho]

Awesome, as much as I respect the literature out there and know that science backs up the claims I do believe one can be loose about such things from time to time and still create great beer

[Jayborracho]

Update, IF anyone might be interested (if not, ignore):

As I had indicated above, I have followed through on brewing my American pilsners, but decided to use tap water instead of distilled, to keep the mash pH nice and high, as an experiment.  Zero salt additions beyond those present in malt and water.  Water report for Two Rivers, WI is available at the bottom of: https://www.rackers.org/local-water-quality/

I guess my experiment "worked" so far -- the alkalinity in my tap water kept the mash pH around 5.9 as I intended.  I still got 86% brewhouse efficiency, which was less than the 94% anticipated... but beyond mid-80s, who cares, right?!  I got an OG of 1.036 (aimed for 1.040) which I think is alright for an American lite style, should be good drinking this summer, and I split the batch between WLP940 Mexican lager and S-189.  The WLP940 is fermenting away in my basement at about 56 F, and the S-189 is upstairs with me here at 68 F (yet another experiment, let's see what this yeast does at room temp).

The wort tasted delicious and was reasonably clear.  I don't expect any very unusual characteristics from either of these beers, despite the lack of pH control, high efficiency, or even the high ferm temp from S-189.  I can't wait to see what happens with these.  Talk about short & shoddy.  Oh yeah and mash time was 50 minutes, boil time 75 minutes.  About 10-11 IBUs but the hops are old homegrowns from 2017 so I can really only guess.  But like I said, wort tasted great.

Experiments like this are so much fun.     If I remember, I'll report more results later.

Did your beer end up tasting great?

[dmtaylor]

The S-189 turned out great!  I think there’s only 1 bottle left. Very clean, malty, tasty. I prefer it to the WLP940 which turned out good but more dull.