[fredthecat]

sacch, i personally hate this style, thanks for putting it into words. one of the worst craft beers ive had in the last year was some "october bock" type stuff - ~5.5%ABV, amber, incredibly sweet and just awful. it was a dumper, and i am very cheap.

while i understand the superfluous "people can drink what they want and brew what they like" comments, i have a beef with lame styles like this that stick around because we've had decades now of craft beer development. we should have jettisoned the lame crap.

however, as i think you may start to understand, people with excellent taste in and knowledge of beer are now the secondary if not last-place targets of most craft breweries. they want the mainstream, the people who won't notice the decisions based in saving money and increasing profits or simply getting the most people drinking it. thats why everything is fruity and light now.

we are in fact entering a new dark era of craft brewing.. and im not talking about stouts and porters.

[hopfenundmalz]

I've toured Ayinger a couple times. They stock 4 malts for lagers. Pils, Munich, CaraMunich and Carafa. Of course they have Wheat malt for Wheatbiers, and Simar for color adjustment.

Their Oktoberfest is really good. They also have a Kirtabier for a local Fest. Tasted it side by side back in the USA with knowledgeable friends. We concluded that the CaraMunich was increased for Kirtabier.

[Bel Air Brewing]

I've toured Ayinger a couple times. They stock 4 malts for lagers. Pils, Munich, CaraMunich and Carafa. Of course they have Wheat malt for Wheatbiers, and Simar for color adjustment.

Their Oktoberfest is really good. They also have a Kirtabier for a local Fest. Tasted it side by side back in the USA with knowledgeable friends. We concluded that the CaraMunich was increased for Kirtabier.

Their beer is really good. Bought a keg (13.5 g) of their pilsner. That keg disappeared really fast!
Bought a 4 pack of the Oktoberfest. It was drinkable, but I will not buy it again. Certainly it would have tasted much better in a bar in Munich.

[RC]

while i understand the superfluous "people can drink what they want and brew what they like" comments, i have a beef with lame styles like this that stick around because we've had decades now of craft beer development. we should have jettisoned the lame crap.

I must be missing something, because I do not understand what there is to have a beef about. Don't like it? Don't buy it. That simple.

I hate licorice, and so I do not buy it. Other people love it, and so they buy it. It would be silly if I ranted against licorice because I do not care for it.

[Iliff Ave]

So what about the American breweries that make really good “German style marzen”? Are we not talking about those?

I’m so confused.

[fredthecat]

while i understand the superfluous "people can drink what they want and brew what they like" comments, i have a beef with lame styles like this that stick around because we've had decades now of craft beer development. we should have jettisoned the lame crap.

I must be missing something, because I do not understand what there is to have a beef about. Don't like it? Don't buy it. That simple.

I hate licorice, and so I do not buy it. Other people love it, and so they buy it. It would be silly if I ranted against licorice because I do not care for it.

its totally selfish on my part because i have beer tastes that are not trendy or common among the mainstream, but im saying that the market is flooded with garbage and the average person with an a college education does drink craft beer, but they do it with the same uncritical tastebuds that made people consume NAILs for decades.

as i've said repeatedly, there was a shift between the mid 2000s to early 2010s where selection of good and great beer (that i personally liked) was improving while simultaneously prices on average were increasing with some extreme high outlier prices popping up too ie. $25 750ml "special beer" bottles.

between the mid 2010s when all this fruity, sour and DDH crap started coming out shelf space for the beers i relied on has disappeared drastically while prices continued to climb hugely.

beer in 2021 is way overpriced and majorly crap. a problem unique to my location is that the govt beer and liquor stores (who regulate even what supermarkets can sell btw) decided to "support" ontario craft brewers, the problem is that they completely suck. they get a guaranteed govt shelf space and dont even try to make a decent product. the beer i can choose from is basically

1. "cheap" imported german/polish/czech pale lager-pils-helles ($2.40 per 500ml can) - this is what i buy when i dont have any homebrew
2. canadian average craft beer (very inconsistent, though i admit there are a few i find acceptable - $3.25 - $4 per 500ml can)
       a. hazy IPAs
       b. "cream ales"
       c. session ales
       d. craft lagers
       e. fruit/sour crap
             noticing a pattern? -max IBU 35, all pale, "approachable"
3. canadian "premium" craft - same as above but add DDH, higher abv DIPAs, and higher price.
4. very small choice of american IPAs basically founders all-day, voodoo ranger and SNPA. thats it. ($3.45+ per 500ml)
5. volatile selection of about 4 different english bitters, often simply sold out, and it gets boring drinking these ones over and over again. theyre nothing special. ($2.50)
6. NAILs and discount beer (still minimum $2 per 500ml)
7. macro "premium" - heineken/carlsberg/guinness/etc

unibroue is mysteriously gone from ontario shelf spaces, you cant get it other than fin du monde, and that is hard to find and expensive (edit: sapporo in fact does have a share in the beerstore corp.)


i know people here seem to get upset when i am very critical of the beer industry, but i have the right to do so (despite the fact that im shouting alone in the dark here) and the situation is really grim here when it used to be really good.

[Bel Air Brewing]

So what about the American breweries that make really good “German style marzen”? Are we not talking about those?

I’m so confused.

Yes, let's talk about those. Which breweries come to mind? And, is Marzen a prolific style of beer in Germany? I do not recall seeing any on the store shelves, having spent a lot of time in Frankfurt, Munich, and Mainz.

[Iliff Ave]

So what about the American breweries that make really good “German style marzen”? Are we not talking about those?

I’m so confused.

Yes, let's talk about those. Which breweries come to mind? And, is Marzen a prolific style of beer in Germany? I do not recall seeing any on the store shelves, having spent a lot of time in Frankfurt, Munich, and Mainz.

Here locally I get Prost and Bierstadt which do it well but there are places like Odell and even my neighborhood brewery that do it well. Weldwerks was delicious the other day along with lefthand and some others. All depend on where you live and what’s available to you I guess.

I prefer festbier to marzen but you don’t see a lot of those around here.

[Wilbur]

An updated Designing Great Beers seems like a waste of time. Imagine you started in 2015(ish), by the time you publish here comes brut IPA, pastry stout, milkshake IPA, cryo hops, & craft malt. Market seems to be changing too quickly to be useful.

I think of the whole Märzen thing like lutefisk, or Irish red ale. From the people I've talked to, nobody in Scandinavia eats lutefisk anymore. For some families in Minnesota though it's a whole big thing. Märzen is the same, it's a German American tradition, not a German one.

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[Bel Air Brewing]

An updated Designing Great Beers seems like a waste of time. Imagine you started in 2015(ish), by the time you publish here comes brut IPA, pastry stout, milkshake IPA, cryo hops, & craft malt. Market seems to be changing too quickly to be useful.

I think of the whole Märzen thing like lutefisk, or Irish red ale. From the people I've talked to, nobody in Scandinavia eats lutefisk anymore. For some families in Minnesota though it's a whole big thing. Märzen is the same, it's a German American tradition, not a German one.

I agree. Just waiting for the next Hyper-Triple Rooty-Fruity IPA.

[BrewBama]

I've toured Ayinger a couple times. They stock 4 malts for lagers. Pils, Munich, CaraMunich and Carafa. Of course they have Wheat malt for Wheatbiers, and Simar for color adjustment.

Their Oktoberfest is really good. They also have a Kirtabier for a local Fest. Tasted it side by side back in the USA with knowledgeable friends. We concluded that the CaraMunich was increased for Kirtabier.

+1. It’s amazing that really good brewers use such a constrained stock list to formulate numerous beers across the spectrum of their portfolio. Reminds me of Drew’s Brewing on the Ones: Use a small list in different ratios to brew different beers.

…
I think of the whole Märzen thing like lutefisk, or Irish red ale. From the people I've talked to, nobody in Scandinavia eats lutefisk anymore. For some families in Minnesota though it's a whole big thing. Märzen is the same, it's a German American tradition, not a German one.

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I agree. It’s like ordering pepperoni pizza in Italy. They have no idea what you’re talking about.

In all the fests I’ve been to in Germany, I didn’t think twice about the beer. It’s true the beer is a central theme but it’s the tradition, atmosphere, music, and people that make it so fun. The beer is just social lubricant. The ones there for the beer usually don’t last long. They end up on the hills behind the tent passed out in their own puke and being attended to by medics.

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[ttash]

I do consider it a privilege that we as homebrewers have access to authentic ingredients, and the knowledge base, with which to create true to style (or not, if that's your thing) beers in the comfort of our homes.
Lest we take these things for granted.

[tommymorris]

The ones there for the beer usually don’t last long. They end up on the hills behind the tent passed out in their own puke and being attended to by medics.

I’ve never been to Oktoberfest. That’s a part of it I didn’t know about.

[ynotbrusum]

I bought a mixed six pack of Märzen style beers at my LHBS and split it with my BIL yesterday. We ranked them top to bottom as follows:

Paulaner (German), Revolution (Chicago), Riverlands (local St. Charles, IL brewery), Haaker-Pschorr (German), Warsteiner (German), and a unique Around the Bend (Chicago) with a very light hand of “Pasilla Chili and Epazote”.  All were quite delicious and (other than the Octoberfiesta by ATB) to style, FWIW.

And Saturday I brewed an American Helles, substituting Montana Craft Pils and Proximity Base Malt for German malts ….hoping it will be tasty and not entering or presenting it as true to any style, just thought I’d give it a try.

[Bel Air Brewing]

The ones there for the beer usually don’t last long. They end up on the hills behind the tent passed out in their own puke and being attended to by medics.

I’ve never been to Oktoberfest. That’s a part of it I didn’t know about.

We attended Oktoberfest in Munich, quite a few years ago. Our guide advised us to go early in the morning, and leave early. Late in the day it is mostly occupied by those who have had way too much beer.

The most interesting things I remember - all beers were served in one liter mugs. Each brewery had their own tent, which was huge, nearly the size of a football field.

And each brewery had a team of horses, hitched to a beer wagon.

Yes, we took our guide's advice, arrived very early in the day, and left early.