[fredthecat]

Are we talking about festbier or marzen now?

Marzen, but there is a fine distinction between the two.

I have never found a true Festbier brewed in the US. On the other hand, many brewing companies put out a Marzen-Oktoberfest this time of year.

was the labeling wrong? did it say "Fustbier"?

[dmtaylor]

Are we talking about festbier or marzen now?

Marzen, but there is a fine distinction between the two.

I have never found a true Festbier brewed in the US. On the other hand, many brewing companies put out a Marzen-Oktoberfest this time of year.

Ale Asylum (from Madison, WI) makes a great pale version of a festbier called Oktillion....... unfortunately, this brewery recently closed doors (like last month), and future seems uncertain.  Ironically, this is the same brewery that last year released several beers in their new line known as "FVCK COVID".  Seems that does indeed seem to be what did them in.  Meanwhile, they are also reporting that they will try to continue production some way, somehow, going forward.  Just won't be the same way they were doing before.

[Bel Air Brewing]

Are we talking about festbier or marzen now?

Marzen, but there is a fine distinction between the two.

I have never found a true Festbier brewed in the US. On the other hand, many brewing companies put out a Marzen-Oktoberfest this time of year.

Ale Asylum (from Madison, WI) makes a great pale version of a festbier called Oktillion....... unfortunately, this brewery recently closed doors (like last month), and future seems uncertain.  Ironically, this is the same brewery that last year released several beers in their new line known as "FVCK COVID".  Seems that does indeed seem to be what did them in.  Meanwhile, they are also reporting that they will try to continue production some way, somehow, going forward.  Just won't be the same way they were doing before.

Their website is going strong, with no mention of shut down...unless I missed it.

[Village Taphouse]

There is some disconnect between small American breweries and making Euro styles in the proper way.  I don't know if it's just naive, young brewers or if it's budget constraints or maybe an IDGAF attitude.  I went to lunch about three weeks ago and had a kolsch brewed by the brewery that shares a parking lot with the restaurant.  It was cloudy, far darker than it should have been and the flavor was muddy.  I have no idea what they did but the beer was NOT enjoyable nor was it anything like any type of Kolsch I have ever had.  I switched over to an amber lager kind of thing that is also brewed locally and I even know the brewer (or one of the owners) and he's actually been over to my house when we used to get together regularly.  This beer was also in that same category... super cloudy and muddy-tasting.  No crispness, no defining character and no real enjoyment.  Again, I might be getting snobby in my old age but if I ran a brewery or I brewed commercially, I would never, ever release beer like this.  For the people who like it, fine.  I'm not even bashing the brewery as much as I just wonder why these beers are like this.   

[dmtaylor]

Are we talking about festbier or marzen now?

Marzen, but there is a fine distinction between the two.

I have never found a true Festbier brewed in the US. On the other hand, many brewing companies put out a Marzen-Oktoberfest this time of year.

Ale Asylum (from Madison, WI) makes a great pale version of a festbier called Oktillion....... unfortunately, this brewery recently closed doors (like last month), and future seems uncertain.  Ironically, this is the same brewery that last year released several beers in their new line known as "FVCK COVID".  Seems that does indeed seem to be what did them in.  Meanwhile, they are also reporting that they will try to continue production some way, somehow, going forward.  Just won't be the same way they were doing before.

Their website is going strong, with no mention of shut down...unless I missed it.

Now that I look at more pictures on Untapp'd.... it appears the later versions are a bit darker than I remember.  Perhaps they've aimed for a blend of festbier and Marzen styles, I dunno.  I know when I tasted it a couple years ago, I found the more pale coloration and less toasty flavors refreshing.  But that was a while back.  They could have changed recipes over time too.

[fredthecat]

There is some disconnect between small American breweries and making Euro styles in the proper way.  I don't know if it's just naive, young brewers or if it's budget constraints or maybe an IDGAF attitude.  I went to lunch about three weeks ago and had a kolsch brewed by the brewery that shares a parking lot with the restaurant.  It was cloudy, far darker than it should have been and the flavor was muddy.  I have no idea what they did but the beer was NOT enjoyable nor was it anything like any type of Kolsch I have ever had.  I switched over to an amber lager kind of thing that is also brewed locally and I even know the brewer (or one of the owners) and he's actually been over to my house when we used to get together regularly.  This beer was also in that same category... super cloudy and muddy-tasting.  No crispness, no defining character and no real enjoyment.  Again, I might be getting snobby in my old age but if I ran a brewery or I brewed commercially, I would never, ever release beer like this.  For the people who like it, fine.  I'm not even bashing the brewery as much as I just wonder why these beers are like this.

i think it's pretty simple - they focus much more heavily on a main product or 2 or 3. ie. gaffel - they make kolsch, that is basically all they make and all theyve made for more than 100 years. so theyve had probably thousands if not tens of thousands of brews to hone in on ideal processes, water, etc.

you mention crispness, im no expert but ive been homebrewing for 15 years now and i still only have a few general ideas about how to achieve "crispness" in some/most cases. if you only made one type of beer ever, you could get to several levels of accuracy further in terms of desired crispness (if thats what one wants) and consistency in hitting this.

craft brewers simply don't have that knowledge, even if they have a wider understanding of brewing many different styles very well.

and more specifically in the3 case of the really lame kolsch you mentioned - it is part of the problem where craft breweries are targeting the mainstream, and products are increasingly about branding/label/name/perception etc. "oh kolsch? yeah its supposed to be a bit cloudy, no artificialy clearing used!" heh, i saw an "amber kolsch" advertised recently. lol.

[Village Taphouse]

There is some disconnect between small American breweries and making Euro styles in the proper way.  I don't know if it's just naive, young brewers or if it's budget constraints or maybe an IDGAF attitude.  I went to lunch about three weeks ago and had a kolsch brewed by the brewery that shares a parking lot with the restaurant.  It was cloudy, far darker than it should have been and the flavor was muddy.  I have no idea what they did but the beer was NOT enjoyable nor was it anything like any type of Kolsch I have ever had.  I switched over to an amber lager kind of thing that is also brewed locally and I even know the brewer (or one of the owners) and he's actually been over to my house when we used to get together regularly.  This beer was also in that same category... super cloudy and muddy-tasting.  No crispness, no defining character and no real enjoyment.  Again, I might be getting snobby in my old age but if I ran a brewery or I brewed commercially, I would never, ever release beer like this.  For the people who like it, fine.  I'm not even bashing the brewery as much as I just wonder why these beers are like this.

i think it's pretty simple - they focus much more heavily on a main product or 2 or 3. ie. gaffel - they make kolsch, that is basically all they make and all theyve made for more than 100 years. so theyve had probably thousands if not tens of thousands of brews to hone in on ideal processes, water, etc.

you mention crispness, im no expert but ive been homebrewing for 15 years now and i still only have a few general ideas about how to achieve "crispness" in some/most cases. if you only made one type of beer ever, you could get to several levels of accuracy further in terms of desired crispness (if thats what one wants) and consistency in hitting this.

craft brewers simply don't have that knowledge, even if they have a wider understanding of brewing many different styles very well.

and more specifically in the3 case of the really lame kolsch you mentioned - it is part of the problem where craft breweries are targeting the mainstream, and products are increasingly about branding/label/name/perception etc. "oh kolsch? yeah its supposed to be a bit cloudy, no artificialy clearing used!" heh, i saw an "amber kolsch" advertised recently. lol.

On one hand I agree that these are less-experienced brewers making many different styles so maybe they don't have as much of a chance to focus.  They should either focus on the styles they're better at brewing or do a bit more homework.  OTOH, I have experienced some smaller brewers who make very, very good beer.  Good flavor, clarity, balance, etc.  You can tell that someone experienced is in the brewery and these should be the breweries that get noticed.   I always assumed that the beer would speak for itself and that people would flock to the better breweries/brewpubs but I see certain places that make mediocre beer and it's packed every week.  At some of these places... I truly wonder who is in the brewery and what they know about various styles. 

[reverseapachemaster]

On one hand I agree that these are less-experienced brewers making many different styles so maybe they don't have as much of a chance to focus.  They should either focus on the styles they're better at brewing or do a bit more homework.  OTOH, I have experienced some smaller brewers who make very, very good beer.  Good flavor, clarity, balance, etc.  You can tell that someone experienced is in the brewery and these should be the breweries that get noticed.   I always assumed that the beer would speak for itself and that people would flock to the better breweries/brewpubs but I see certain places that make mediocre beer and it's packed every week.  At some of these places... I truly wonder who is in the brewery and what they know about various styles.

As much as we may not want to admit it, most of the history of the craft beer movement has been carried by breweries making mediocre to bad beer in the vein of whatever sells easiest. For every brewery pumping out fantastic beers consistently there are ten good breweries and twenty breweries making lousy beer. The same can be said for pretty much anything though. For every Michelin starred restaurant there are dozens of very good restaurants, hundreds of decent restaurants and thousands of not great restaurants.

[Bel Air Brewing]

Perhaps those on this side of the pond could take a lesson from our European friends.

There are many small breweries scattered about, many times in smaller cities and even villages. I suppose you could call these "craft breweries", but they have little in common with what we consider craft-breweries here.

They make the traditional beers, and do a fantastic job at it. When my wife and I toured Europe, we found most towns had a local brewery. And the beers were very, very good. And I did not see one Hazy IPA on tap.

edit: Did visit a small brewpub in Amsterdam. Beers were mediocre at best.
edit #2: As home brewers, many of us actually produce beer that is as good, and often better, than what is available at local breweries / brewpubs.

[tommymorris]

Regarding all the bad breweries, I wouldn’t judge them by their Oktoberfest.

I admit I often am overwhelmed by the variety offered at restaurants and bars. I tend to default back to American IPA when out. I like American IPA (preferably West Coast) and I like to think breweries put their best foot forward on their IPAs. That’s not always the case, but usually I get decent beer.

Otherwise, I drink my own. It’s awesome sometimes, good often, and passable others. Sometimes I dump a batch…

[fredthecat]

Perhaps those on this side of the pond could take a lesson from our European friends.

There are many small breweries scattered about, many times in smaller cities and even villages. I suppose you could call these "craft breweries", but they have little in common with what we consider craft-breweries here.

They make the traditional beers, and do a fantastic job at it. When my wife and I toured Europe, we found most towns had a local brewery. And the beers were very, very good. And I did not see one Hazy IPA on tap.

ive had tons of mediocre beers from smaller breweries from all over europe, and its even sadder that they only do 3 styles, so they have even less of an excuse for making bad beer. i mentioned that there are some breweries that have done one style and happen to be "that" brewery that does it really well by simply monitoring their process and doing 10,000+ batches. what is the lesson north american craft breweries should learn? do 10,000 batches and become better through experience? that is a no-brainer

[Village Taphouse]

On one hand I agree that these are less-experienced brewers making many different styles so maybe they don't have as much of a chance to focus.  They should either focus on the styles they're better at brewing or do a bit more homework.  OTOH, I have experienced some smaller brewers who make very, very good beer.  Good flavor, clarity, balance, etc.  You can tell that someone experienced is in the brewery and these should be the breweries that get noticed.   I always assumed that the beer would speak for itself and that people would flock to the better breweries/brewpubs but I see certain places that make mediocre beer and it's packed every week.  At some of these places... I truly wonder who is in the brewery and what they know about various styles.

As much as we may not want to admit it, most of the history of the craft beer movement has been carried by breweries making mediocre to bad beer in the vein of whatever sells easiest. For every brewery pumping out fantastic beers consistently there are ten good breweries and twenty breweries making lousy beer. The same can be said for pretty much anything though. For every Michelin starred restaurant there are dozens of very good restaurants, hundreds of decent restaurants and thousands of not great restaurants.

That's true.  One thing I didn't take into consideration is that many, many everyday beer drinkers don't know what a certain style is supposed to taste like so they just drink the beer.  But they *DO* have tastebuds and you might think that they would take issue with something that seemed like a muddy mess.  It's also true that these breweries might be doing a disservice to beer drinkers by handing them something and saying it's a Czech Pilsner or a Dunkel or a Kolsch but having the beer not really represent the style.  I mentioned earlier that a brewery near me makes a dunkel that tastes like the beer is 50% roasted barley.  It's absolutely dreadful and that's not what a dunkel is supposed to taste like.  I make a dunkel often and it would be too bad if someone were at my house and say, "OH DUNKEL!  NO SIR!  I DON'T LIKE THAT STYLE AT ALL!" and that would be reasonable if they had tried this brewery's example. 

[Saccharomyces]

It is not only volume of a specific style a brewery produces that makes its beer great.   Improvement also includes critical feedback from qualified tasters.  We are all cellar blind to a point.  However, that being said, pressure is on craft brewers to be profitable.  Often, profitability trumps quality.  The thing about this forum is that most of the regulars have been brewing all-grain beer for at least 15 years.  Coupled with time spent tasting and evaluating beer and other beer geekiness.  Fifteen years in this hobby gets one more than half way to 10,000 hours of experience.

[Saccharomyces]

I mentioned earlier that a brewery near me makes a dunkel that tastes like the beer is 50% roasted barley.

It would be interesting to see the base malts that are in use at this brewery. The reality is that too many craft breweries are using American 2-row for the styles that they attempting to produce.  In my humble opinion, American 2-row has no place in authentic German styles.  I do not care if it is craft malt. American malt does not taste like German malt.  American 2-row should be reserved for American craft styles that were created using American 2-row.  At one point, the price differential between imported and domestic malt was appreciable.  Today, they are basically the same price after one factors in the fact that imported malt comes in 55lb bags.  Craft malt is more expensive than American 2-row and imported German and British malt from the major maltings.

[Megary]

I mentioned earlier that a brewery near me makes a dunkel that tastes like the beer is 50% roasted barley.

It would be interesting to see the base malts that are in use at this brewery. The reality is that too many craft breweries are using American 2-row for the styles that they attempting to produce.  In my humble opinion, American 2-row has no place in authentic German styles.  I do not care if it is craft malt. American malt does not taste like German malt.  American 2-row should be reserved for American craft styles that were created using American 2-row.  At one point, the price differential between imported and domestic malt was appreciable.  Today, they are basically the same price after one factors in the fact that imported malt comes in 55lb bags.  Craft malt is more expensive than American 2-row and imported German and British malt from the major maltings.

That would make a great (Brulospohy) experiment.