[chinaski]

I'd like to turn back to the OP's request and comment on what I see both on the podcast and in this particular thread.  My intention is one of feedback rather than of criticism of anyone.  The podcast's name- Experimental Brewing- isn't quite reflective of the majority of the content of late.  I don't hear a lot of reporting back on actual experiments (in the scientific-esque sense); rather I hear more content relating to and coming from the professional brewery world.  When I do hear about "experiments" its more like Denny or Drew substituted a new ingredient in an old recipe and report back their impressions.  I did think Drew's coverage of the hot steep method was useful and have been using it to answer a question of mine about extract efficiencies from some local malt that I got.  I'd love to hear more about approaches to evaluating new ingredients, more controlled experiments, and "how I solved this problem" type of content.  All of this said, I really like the podcast and listen avidly.

I don't find opinions on what is and what is not good craft beer and what different breweries are making all that engaging- its so subjective.  One of the reasons I brew (a lot) is to avoid purchasing commercial beer.

Thanks for reading!

[narvin]

While I enjoy the traditional brews, I do wish a had a real German Biergarten near me, isn't a novelty beer simply an expression of artistic creativity? If so, why can’t we have both? Would we ever have Belgian beers if tradition was a strick factor?

Without the historic creativity we’d still be drinking the nasty native brews we’ve read about in Zymurgy. No thanks.

I'm not trying to pass judgement.  There are plenty of excellent flavored beers, including fruit beer.  However, I'm not going to put advancements in the malting process, purification and isolation of single strain yeast, and hop breeding in the same category as throwing a donut in the mash. Some things are novel and stand the test of time.  Others are novel as simply a novelty.

Also, there are far fewer spiced Belgian beers than people think.  The really wild stuff (literally) is about as traditional as you can get... wild yeast from a cherry orchard.  Fantome is an exception, although I'd definitely put some of them in the novelty category. Not sure I've heard anyone talking about them in a while, come to think of it...

This is, like, just my opinion, man

[Megary]

While I enjoy the traditional brews, I do wish a had a real German Biergarten near me, isn't a novelty beer simply an expression of artistic creativity? If so, why can’t we have both? Would we ever have Belgian beers if tradition was a strick factor?

Without the historic creativity we’d still be drinking the nasty native brews we’ve read about in Zymurgy. No thanks.

I'm not trying to pass judgement.  There are plenty of excellent flavored beers, including fruit beer.  However, I'm not going to put advancements in the malting process, purification and isolation of single strain yeast, and hop breeding in the same category as throwing a donut in the mash. Some things are novel and stand the test of time.  Others are novel as simply a novelty.

Also, there are far fewer spiced Belgian beers than people think.  The really wild stuff (literally) is about as traditional as you can get... wild yeast from a cherry orchard.  Fantome is an exception, although I'd definitely put some of them in the novelty category. Not sure I've heard anyone talking about them in a while, come to think of it...

This is, like, just my opinion, man

Who is doing that?  Nobody here that I can tell.  Even the people who make novelty (using this word not because I agree with it, but because it’s been established in this thread) beers are not doing that.  And to your hyperbole, I doubt any of those brewers are “just throwing a donut in the mash”.  However, since I’ve never seen any of these brewers in action, I’m willing to accept that I could be wrong on that.

[narvin]

While I enjoy the traditional brews, I do wish a had a real German Biergarten near me, isn't a novelty beer simply an expression of artistic creativity? If so, why can’t we have both? Would we ever have Belgian beers if tradition was a strick factor?

Without the historic creativity we’d still be drinking the nasty native brews we’ve read about in Zymurgy. No thanks.

I'm not trying to pass judgement.  There are plenty of excellent flavored beers, including fruit beer.  However, I'm not going to put advancements in the malting process, purification and isolation of single strain yeast, and hop breeding in the same category as throwing a donut in the mash. Some things are novel and stand the test of time.  Others are novel as simply a novelty.

Also, there are far fewer spiced Belgian beers than people think.  The really wild stuff (literally) is about as traditional as you can get... wild yeast from a cherry orchard.  Fantome is an exception, although I'd definitely put some of them in the novelty category. Not sure I've heard anyone talking about them in a while, come to think of it...

This is, like, just my opinion, man

Who is doing that?  Nobody here that I can tell.  Even the people who make novelty (using this word not because I agree with it, but because it’s been established in this thread) beers are not doing that.  And to your hyperbole, I doubt any of those brewers are “just throwing a donut in the mash”.  However, since I’ve never seen any of these brewers in action, I’m willing to accept that I could be wrong on that.

Sadly, you're partially right.  Homebrewery experiment with food in the mash or boil, but the breweries I know that make a lot of flavored beers use flavor extracts from an industrial supplier, according to friends who work there. Not what I would consider craft in any sense.

[Megary]

While I enjoy the traditional brews, I do wish a had a real German Biergarten near me, isn't a novelty beer simply an expression of artistic creativity? If so, why can’t we have both? Would we ever have Belgian beers if tradition was a strick factor?

Without the historic creativity we’d still be drinking the nasty native brews we’ve read about in Zymurgy. No thanks.

I'm not trying to pass judgement.  There are plenty of excellent flavored beers, including fruit beer.  However, I'm not going to put advancements in the malting process, purification and isolation of single strain yeast, and hop breeding in the same category as throwing a donut in the mash. Some things are novel and stand the test of time.  Others are novel as simply a novelty.

Also, there are far fewer spiced Belgian beers than people think.  The really wild stuff (literally) is about as traditional as you can get... wild yeast from a cherry orchard.  Fantome is an exception, although I'd definitely put some of them in the novelty category. Not sure I've heard anyone talking about them in a while, come to think of it...

This is, like, just my opinion, man

Who is doing that?  Nobody here that I can tell.  Even the people who make novelty (using this word not because I agree with it, but because it’s been established in this thread) beers are not doing that.  And to your hyperbole, I doubt any of those brewers are “just throwing a donut in the mash”.  However, since I’ve never seen any of these brewers in action, I’m willing to accept that I could be wrong on that.

Sadly, you're partially right.  Homebrewery experiment with food in the mash or boil, but the breweries I know that make a lot of flavored beers use flavor extracts from an industrial supplier, according to friends who work there. Not what I would consider craft in any sense.

Ok.  But just so I understand, the “plenty of excellent flavored beers, including fruit beer” that you alluded to…they are not craft beer?  Or they *might* be craft beer if they don’t use flavored extracts?  Are there other rules?

How a brewer gets to a great tasting beer, to me, is irrelevant.

[narvin]

New Glarus Wisconsin Red and Boon Kriek taste like fruit beers because they are made with real fruit.  Is that the only way to make a good flavored/specialty beer?  Of course not, but if more breweries actually made beers of that quality, I don't think this topic would be as popular as it is.  Aside from saying "Wow, I've never had that before" in an ambiguous tone, there's not a lot that's memorable about most of the "experimental" beers I've had recently.  Was it better in the days of Randy Mosher inspired "Radical Brewing" and 1000 IBU IPAS?  Maybe, maybe not, but aside from a few experimental breweries, half of the taps weren't filled with these beers.

I don't drink flavored vodka, so I'm not in the market for most of these beers anyway, but to me it seems like that, or adding a flavor shot to your coffee.  Might as well just open a bar with one beer and 50 toppings, like a sundae bar.  You could probably save a ton of money that way too.

[Megary]

New Glarus Wisconsin Red and Boon Kriek taste like fruit beers because they are made with real fruit.  Is that the only way to make a good flavored/specialty beer?  Of course not, but if more breweries actually made beers of that quality, I don't think this topic would be as popular as it is.  Aside from saying "Wow, I've never had that before" in an ambiguous tone, there's not a lot that's memorable about most of the "experimental" beers I've had recently.  Was it better in the days of Randy Mosher inspired "Radical Brewing" and 1000 IBU IPAS?  Maybe, maybe not, but aside from a few experimental breweries, half of the taps weren't filled with these beers.

I don't drink flavored vodka, so I'm not in the market for most of these beers anyway, but to me it seems like that, or adding a flavor shot to your coffee.  Might as well just open a bar with one beer and 50 toppings, like a sundae bar.  You could probably save a ton of money that way too.

I may not agree, but I got you, loud and clear. 

Cheers and Happy New Year!

[denny]

I'd like to turn back to the OP's request and comment on what I see both on the podcast and in this particular thread.  My intention is one of feedback rather than of criticism of anyone.  The podcast's name- Experimental Brewing- isn't quite reflective of the majority of the content of late.  I don't hear a lot of reporting back on actual experiments (in the scientific-esque sense); rather I hear more content relating to and coming from the professional brewery world.  When I do hear about "experiments" its more like Denny or Drew substituted a new ingredient in an old recipe and report back their impressions.  I did think Drew's coverage of the hot steep method was useful and have been using it to answer a question of mine about extract efficiencies from some local malt that I got.  I'd love to hear more about approaches to evaluating new ingredients, more controlled experiments, and "how I solved this problem" type of content.  All of this said, I really like the podcast and listen avidly.

I don't find opinions on what is and what is not good craft beer and what different breweries are making all that engaging- its so subjective.  One of the reasons I brew (a lot) is to avoid purchasing commercial beer.

Thanks for reading!

Well, that's not quite the kind of question I was thinking of for the show, but it's a valid comment.  We really wish we could get back to the kind of experimentation we did when we started 5 years ago, but it's just not possible for a number of reasons.  So about the best we can do is talk about our own brewing experiences. Personally, I've been pushing for us to cover less commercial brewing subjects. It's nothing that really interests me personally.  I appreciate your comments and hope we can address them in some way.

[narvin]

New Glarus Wisconsin Red and Boon Kriek taste like fruit beers because they are made with real fruit.  Is that the only way to make a good flavored/specialty beer?  Of course not, but if more breweries actually made beers of that quality, I don't think this topic would be as popular as it is.  Aside from saying "Wow, I've never had that before" in an ambiguous tone, there's not a lot that's memorable about most of the "experimental" beers I've had recently.  Was it better in the days of Randy Mosher inspired "Radical Brewing" and 1000 IBU IPAS?  Maybe, maybe not, but aside from a few experimental breweries, half of the taps weren't filled with these beers.

I don't drink flavored vodka, so I'm not in the market for most of these beers anyway, but to me it seems like that, or adding a flavor shot to your coffee.  Might as well just open a bar with one beer and 50 toppings, like a sundae bar.  You could probably save a ton of money that way too.

I may not agree, but I got you, loud and clear. 

Cheers and Happy New Year!

No problem, we don't all have to agree on what makes great beer.!  I respect experimentation but personally get bored of it when it seems to be a search for the next unusual ingredient or the 1000th fruit IPA that doesn't taste as good (to me) as a well done regular IPA.    The issue of flavor extracts is probably a separate one, but it's not new, I guess. Shipyard Pumpkin was the typical mass market "craft" flavored beer that was a big thing in its time.

[chinaski]

I'd like to turn back to the OP's request and comment on what I see both on the podcast and in this particular thread.  My intention is one of feedback rather than of criticism of anyone.  The podcast's name- Experimental Brewing- isn't quite reflective of the majority of the content of late.  I don't hear a lot of reporting back on actual experiments (in the scientific-esque sense); rather I hear more content relating to and coming from the professional brewery world.  When I do hear about "experiments" its more like Denny or Drew substituted a new ingredient in an old recipe and report back their impressions.  I did think Drew's coverage of the hot steep method was useful and have been using it to answer a question of mine about extract efficiencies from some local malt that I got.  I'd love to hear more about approaches to evaluating new ingredients, more controlled experiments, and "how I solved this problem" type of content.  All of this said, I really like the podcast and listen avidly.

I don't find opinions on what is and what is not good craft beer and what different breweries are making all that engaging- its so subjective.  One of the reasons I brew (a lot) is to avoid purchasing commercial beer.

Thanks for reading!

Well, that's not quite the kind of question I was thinking of for the show, but it's a valid comment.  We really wish we could get back to the kind of experimentation we did when we started 5 years ago, but it's just not possible for a number of reasons.  So about the best we can do is talk about our own brewing experiences. Personally, I've been pushing for us to cover less commercial brewing subjects. It's nothing that really interests me personally.  I appreciate your comments and hope we can address them in some way.

Thank you Denny- I appreciate your response, point of view, and willingness to read my comment rather than question (I submitted one of those too via email).  One topic that I've heard bits and pieces of, but am not sure was talked about in one episode was your American mild recipe development.  I think it might a good thing to encapsulate in one episode in more depth: you had the idea and did a number of iterations to get what you were happy with as I recall.  Maybe a review of those iterations and your thinking behind them might be interesting to your audience.  Would be to me.

Happy New Year!

[ttash]

I'd like to turn back to the OP's request and comment on what I see both on the podcast and in this particular thread.  My intention is one of feedback rather than of criticism of anyone.  The podcast's name- Experimental Brewing- isn't quite reflective of the majority of the content of late.  I don't hear a lot of reporting back on actual experiments (in the scientific-esque sense); rather I hear more content relating to and coming from the professional brewery world.  When I do hear about "experiments" its more like Denny or Drew substituted a new ingredient in an old recipe and report back their impressions.  I did think Drew's coverage of the hot steep method was useful and have been using it to answer a question of mine about extract efficiencies from some local malt that I got.  I'd love to hear more about approaches to evaluating new ingredients, more controlled experiments, and "how I solved this problem" type of content.  All of this said, I really like the podcast and listen avidly.

I don't find opinions on what is and what is not good craft beer and what different breweries are making all that engaging- its so subjective.  One of the reasons I brew (a lot) is to avoid purchasing commercial beer.

Thanks for reading!

Well, that's not quite the kind of question I was thinking of for the show, but it's a valid comment.  We really wish we could get back to the kind of experimentation we did when we started 5 years ago, but it's just not possible for a number of reasons.  So about the best we can do is talk about our own brewing experiences. Personally, I've been pushing for us to cover less commercial brewing subjects. It's nothing that really interests me personally.  I appreciate your comments and hope we can address them in some way.

Thank you Denny- I appreciate your response, point of view, and willingness to read my comment rather than question (I submitted one of those too via email).  One topic that I've heard bits and pieces of, but am not sure was talked about in one episode was your American mild recipe development.  I think it might a good thing to encapsulate in one episode in more depth: you had the idea and did a number of iterations to get what you were happy with as I recall.  Maybe a review of those iterations and your thinking behind them might be interesting to your audience.  Would be to me.

Happy New Year!

+1

[Megary]

New Glarus Wisconsin Red and Boon Kriek taste like fruit beers because they are made with real fruit.  Is that the only way to make a good flavored/specialty beer?  Of course not, but if more breweries actually made beers of that quality, I don't think this topic would be as popular as it is.  Aside from saying "Wow, I've never had that before" in an ambiguous tone, there's not a lot that's memorable about most of the "experimental" beers I've had recently.  Was it better in the days of Randy Mosher inspired "Radical Brewing" and 1000 IBU IPAS?  Maybe, maybe not, but aside from a few experimental breweries, half of the taps weren't filled with these beers.

I don't drink flavored vodka, so I'm not in the market for most of these beers anyway, but to me it seems like that, or adding a flavor shot to your coffee.  Might as well just open a bar with one beer and 50 toppings, like a sundae bar.  You could probably save a ton of money that way too.

I may not agree, but I got you, loud and clear. 

Cheers and Happy New Year!

No problem, we don't all have to agree on what makes great beer.!  I respect experimentation but personally get bored of it when it seems to be a search for the next unusual ingredient or the 1000th fruit IPA that doesn't taste as good (to me) as a well done regular IPA.    The issue of flavor extracts is probably a separate one, but it's not new, I guess. Shipyard Pumpkin was the typical mass market "craft" flavored beer that was a big thing in its time.

I try really hard to respect everyone’s tastes, likes and dislikes…especially when they don’t jive with my center of gravity.  But pumpkin anything really tests my resolve.   

[tommymorris]

New Glarus Wisconsin Red and Boon Kriek taste like fruit beers because they are made with real fruit.  Is that the only way to make a good flavored/specialty beer?  Of course not, but if more breweries actually made beers of that quality, I don't think this topic would be as popular as it is.  Aside from saying "Wow, I've never had that before" in an ambiguous tone, there's not a lot that's memorable about most of the "experimental" beers I've had recently.  Was it better in the days of Randy Mosher inspired "Radical Brewing" and 1000 IBU IPAS?  Maybe, maybe not, but aside from a few experimental breweries, half of the taps weren't filled with these beers.

I don't drink flavored vodka, so I'm not in the market for most of these beers anyway, but to me it seems like that, or adding a flavor shot to your coffee.  Might as well just open a bar with one beer and 50 toppings, like a sundae bar.  You could probably save a ton of money that way too.

I may not agree, but I got you, loud and clear. 

Cheers and Happy New Year!

No problem, we don't all have to agree on what makes great beer.!  I respect experimentation but personally get bored of it when it seems to be a search for the next unusual ingredient or the 1000th fruit IPA that doesn't taste as good (to me) as a well done regular IPA.    The issue of flavor extracts is probably a separate one, but it's not new, I guess. Shipyard Pumpkin was the typical mass market "craft" flavored beer that was a big thing in its time.

I try really hard to respect everyone’s tastes, likes and dislikes…especially when they don’t jive with my center of gravity.  But pumpkin anything really tests my resolve.   

I hate to poke the bear, but Pumpkin beer is a novelty I like.

[fredthecat]

I hate to poke the bear, but Pumpkin beer is a novelty I like.

apparently pumpkin was used as a fermentable to save on grain early in the history of america. https://patriot.shieldrepublic.com/thank-the-pilgrims-for-pumpkin-beer/

so its "traditional" 

[narvin]

I hate to poke the bear, but Pumpkin beer is a novelty I like.

apparently pumpkin was used as a fermentable to save on grain early in the history of america. https://patriot.shieldrepublic.com/thank-the-pilgrims-for-pumpkin-beer/

so its "traditional" 

Pumpkin is traditional but pumpkin pie spice is definitely new!