[Bel Air Brewing]

I have nothing to add that hasn’t been said already but…

I also brewed a clone of OR several years ago. Maybe even the same recipe from BYO. The recipe was way off and the beer, though good, was more of a strong brown ale. Needed more toast and more hops.

IMO, particularly if you’re brewing for competition, you need to brew a recipe several times to tweak it and get it right for your tastes. And for your system.

Also, how could a RIS be a dated style? It’s literally a historic style… and Rasputin is an outstanding example. Love me some. Even bought the shirt.

That is a good idea, brewing it several times, with continued tweaking.
Ours was brewed over a year ago, specifically for long term aging prior to being entered in competition.
This was a first time brew for us, having never brewed an RIS before. I was very happy with the original result, as it had depth and was very bourbon-like initially at 10% ABV.

It's a learning experience, and this was a big lesson for us. The beer scored 36 & 32 points from two judges, so it was not a bad beer at all.

And, I have now come to appreciate Old Rasputin.

[Cliffs]

This deserves a separate thread.
One of Bel Air's entries was an Imperial Stout.
It was a clone brew of North Coast's Old Rasputin.
We upped the grain bill a bit, shooting for bigger numbers.

5 gallons - 90 minute boil:

OG = 1.093
FG = 1.017
ABV = 10%
IBU = 55

Here is the recipe...basically taken from BYO:

Pale Malt - 20 lbs
Munich Malt - 4 lbs
40* Caramel - 1 lb
120* Caramel - 1 lb
Brown Malt - 1/2 lb
Chocolate Malt - 1/2 lb
Roasted Barley - 1/4 lb
Special B - 1/4 lb

2 oz Willamette FWH
2 oz Willamette 30 min
2 oz Willamette 10 min
6% AA

Wyeast London Ale - 5th Gen

Color - Deep, deep ruby red, almost black.

This is a fine beer. But, here are the judges comments. See what you think.

"A nice beer with a good overall finish. Could use more body. Too light for the style"

"Good beer. Should be darker. Kick up the roast for this style. This beer is between a Big Brown Ale, and a Stout."
Scores: 34 points total (Consensus score)
Aroma - 11
Appearance - 2
Flavor - 15
Mouthfeel - 4
Overall - 4

Based on the recipe, and the judges comments, what say you? Is North Coast Old Rasputin an Imperial Stout or not?

I've drank this beer a ton and have been lucky enough to pick the brain of some of the folks that work at North Coast. OR is the most drinkable RIS I've ever had.
The yeast used to ferment it is their house yeast used for most of their ales, its the old Brew-tek pub ale strain, I think its available from Wyeast as Dennys favorite, 1450. The beer is well attenuated, especially when compared to many other commercial RIS that seem to be very sweet. It's also 9% ABV, not 10.
 You're grain bill is much more complicated than North Coasts, they keep it pretty simple from what I gather, they wont tell me specifics, but I've heard its pale malt, roasted barley and crystal malt. 75 IBU's. 2 additions at the beginning of the boil and at the last 20 minutes.

[denny]

While it's never been confirmed that 1450 is North Coast yeast, it seems likely.

[kramerog]

I am going to jump in with some thoughts without the benefit of reading all the posts. I think many commercial RIS are often well outside the BJCP guidelines. For example Deth's Tar is 14.8% ABV. These other commercial RISs may be effecting the judges expectation forbeers entered as RISs. Having said that my initial reaction was the the amount of roasted malt in the recipe was low for a RIS.

[chinaski]

I often use good-old "Brewing Classic Styles" recipes for my first crack at a beer that I think I might like brewing, then modify them as time goes on.  I have found that this approach makes beers that I really like and they have the added bonus of being considered "to style" albeit early 2010's vintage.  It's still a really great resource with solid recipes.  When I competed, I usually entered beers that were really close to those recipes and have done well.

[Bel Air Brewing]

I am going to jump in with some thoughts without the benefit of reading all the posts. I think many commercial RIS are often well outside the BJCP guidelines. For example Deth's Tar is 14.8% ABV. These other commercial RISs may be effecting the judges expectation forbeers entered as RISs. Having said that my initial reaction was the the amount of roasted malt in the recipe was low for a RIS.

That is what I suspected. With commercial examples outside of the normal envelope. But these beers may have skewed the viewpoint of a few judges into thinking a really big beer is not big enough.

So what would my beer be, what style and category at over 10% ABV? OG 1.093, FG 1.014. It actually meets the BJCP guidelines from a pure numbers standpoint.

I had a great brewing library years ago, with all of the popular authors. Sold it when I sold my brewery...big mistake!

[denny]

I am going to jump in with some thoughts without the benefit of reading all the posts. I think many commercial RIS are often well outside the BJCP guidelines. For example Deth's Tar is 14.8% ABV. These other commercial RISs may be effecting the judges expectation forbeers entered as RISs. Having said that my initial reaction was the the amount of roasted malt in the recipe was low for a RIS.

That is what I suspected. With commercial examples outside of the normal envelope. But these beers may have skewed the viewpoint of a few judges into thinking a really big beer is not big enough.

So what would my beer be, what style and category at over 10% ABV? OG 1.093, FG 1.014. It actually meets the BJCP guidelines from a pure numbers standpoint.

I had a great brewing library years ago, with all of the popular authors. Sold it when I sold my brewery...big mistake!

There is more to a beer than numbers.

[Bel Air Brewing]

I am going to jump in with some thoughts without the benefit of reading all the posts. I think many commercial RIS are often well outside the BJCP guidelines. For example Deth's Tar is 14.8% ABV. These other commercial RISs may be effecting the judges expectation forbeers entered as RISs. Having said that my initial reaction was the the amount of roasted malt in the recipe was low for a RIS.

That is what I suspected. With commercial examples outside of the normal envelope. But these beers may have skewed the viewpoint of a few judges into thinking a really big beer is not big enough.

So what would my beer be, what style and category at over 10% ABV? OG 1.093, FG 1.014. It actually meets the BJCP guidelines from a pure numbers standpoint.

I had a great brewing library years ago, with all of the popular authors. Sold it when I sold my brewery...big mistake!

There is more to a beer than numbers.

Well, yes. Based on the numbers, and the pictures posted here, what category and style of beer is this?
It is a complex beer, with many overtones in the flavor. The alcohol initially was very much like a good bourbon, but it has abated somewhat now.
Had this beer been entered in the correct category, it might have done better.

This is a very smooth, very drinkable stout. But at 10% ABV, what the heck is it?

No, it does not have the depth of flavor and character that Old Rasputin has.

[kramerog]

It might be a Baltic porter (although alcohol is a touch high) if roast character is limited and lager like. Frankly, I prefer the BJCP definition of RIS over the big sweet commercial ones.

[Bel Air Brewing]

It might be a Baltic porter (although alcohol is a touch high) if roast character is limited and lager like. Frankly, I prefer the BJCP definition of RIS over the big sweet commercial ones.

If Diamond Lager yeast had been used, that just might have worked.
But it is very "stout like", in the English tradition. It has much more flavor than Guinness.
It does lack the Starbucks burnt coffee beans flavor.

[Richard]

... It has much more flavor than Guinness...

That's not hard to achieve. I bought some Guinness for St. Patrick's Day and was very disappointed at how thin the flavor was. I used to really like Guinness, but I hadn't had one in quite some time. I don't know if my tastes have changed or if the beer has changed. Based on the fact that several other people had the same reaction that I did, I suspect it is the beer.

[pete b]

... It has much more flavor than Guinness...

That's not hard to achieve. I bought some Guinness for St. Patrick's Day and was very disappointed at how thin the flavor was. I used to really like Guinness, but I hadn't had one in quite some time. I don't know if my tastes have changed or if the beer has changed. Based on the fact that several other people had the same reaction that I did, I suspect it is the beer.

I doubt it’s that Guinness changed, I suspect our collective taste perceptions changed because of all of the over the top stouts and other beers out there. I still enjoy Guinness and consider it a light, well balanced beer.

[fredthecat]

... It has much more flavor than Guinness...

That's not hard to achieve. I bought some Guinness for St. Patrick's Day and was very disappointed at how thin the flavor was. I used to really like Guinness, but I hadn't had one in quite some time. I don't know if my tastes have changed or if the beer has changed. Based on the fact that several other people had the same reaction that I did, I suspect it is the beer.

I doubt it’s that Guinness changed, I suspect our collective taste perceptions changed because of all of the over the top stouts and other beers out there. I still enjoy Guinness and consider it a light, well balanced beer.

i think guinness is surrounded by a ton of rumours, but i believe its production has changed a lot. im not going to research the different production sites and differing methods, but afaik there are different ways the contract brewers around the world use the extract (which last i heard was produced in ireland).

guinness north america had a large portion of its production done at the london ont labatt plant, and they have also gotten the license to produce spaten and lowenbrau here. i used to drink a TON of spaten and lowenbrau abroad because they were extremely cheap and pretty solid, those cans i remember said made in germany. the ones made by labatt taste like crap, and very different. tastes like typical high gravity brewed low quality malt NAIL to me.

point being, its hard to know how contract brewers brew guinness and what changes they've made in contract brewer processes or the extract (assuming thats still even done, and done in ireland).

i can get guinness extra stout at 5% and in glass bottles carbed with CO2 and it tastes different, but has a very weird liquorice/astringent taste to it. its not horrible, but kind of ruins what could have been an improved guinness "draught"

[Bel Air Brewing]

I know this is a single data point, and highly subjective. My wife and I did a side-by-side taste test of Old Rasputin vs my version of Imperial Stout.

We both agreed, ours is far more approachable & drinkable. A smoother, less "in your face" type of beer.

If we were in a bar ordering a stout with a choice between these two, I would select the one from Bel Air Brewing.

It has aged a full year now. And even though the judges gave it a composite score of 34 points, it is actually a very good stout. And it hits the BJCP numbers for the style. Yes, I agree with Denny that beer is more than numbers. But the numbers are important, none the less.

I do not say this because we brewed it. I just gave away 10 gallons of Vienna that was not very good. We entered several Vienna Lagers in the comp, one did very well, and two did poorly. Amazingly, this Vienna was well received by those who are drinking it now. But they are not BJCP rated, so what do they know?

[fredthecat]

It has aged a full year now. And even though the judges gave it a composite score of 34 points, it is actually a very good stout. And it hits the BJCP numbers for the style. Yes, I agree with Denny that beer is more than numbers. But the numbers are important, none the less.

b-but i don't have any numbers... ?

maybe i could start making some scores for my beers?