[Fire Rooster]

Quote from: Fire Rooster on April 05, 2023
                  Was looking for a little extra IBU's since the Hallertau Mittlefruh AA is only 2.7.

Quote from: Homebrew_kev on April 05, 2023
                   If you're looking to save a little money, you can use Columbus or CTZ as a bittering hop.
                   It'll give a big bittering punch and take up less space. That's the idea with those cryo/lupomax hops
                   less material same hop flavor.
-------------------------------------------------

With my experience or imagination, I don't follow the prevailing thought
that 20 IBU is the same regardless of the hops used when boiled for 50 min.


Cheers

[4dogbrewer]

I would go with German Magnum for a bittering hop since you are using Hallertau. For an AIPA, I use Warrior for bittering.

[Kevin]

Aren't the aroma and flavor gone and only bittering characteristics remaining after a first addition of 60... or even 50 minutes? That has been my understanding anyway. So subbing a little high AA hops for a larger quantity of low AA hops to get the same IBU is something I do often.

[Fire Rooster]

Aren't the aroma and flavor gone and only bittering characteristics remaining after a first addition of 60... or even 50 minutes? That has been my understanding anyway. So subbing a little high AA hops for a larger quantity of low AA hops to get the same IBU is something I do often.

That was my point.  Almost everything I read believes all the aroma and flavor are gone.
I'm not convinced based on my taste buds, most, but not all, are gone.

[Bob357]

Not only can some flavors/aromas carry over from bittering additions, but different varieties can impart smoother or harsher bittering.   

[neuse]

I've tried different hops for bittering and am convinced that there is a difference in flavor. To me it seems like after being boiled for 50 minutes (or whatever), the aroma and flavor from the hop oils is gone. But there is something else. I don't know the science behind it, but it's different. As Bob357 said, there is a difference in smooth or harsh, but there's something else, too. For instance, in a Nut Brown or Hefeweizen, it seems that the bittering hops really contribute to the overall flavor.
JMO

[denny]

Not only can some flavors/aromas carry over from bittering additions, but different varieties can impart smoother or harsher bittering.

THIS

[denny]

You might be interested in these...

https://www.experimentalbrew.com/2017/01/18/episode-32-the-ibu-is-a-lie/

https://www.experimentalbrew.com/2021/04/07/episode-130-a-new-way-to-figure-out-hops/

[dmtaylor]

A relatively large amount of any low alpha acid hop used for bittering is absolutely going to give you a generally different character than a relatively small amount of a high alpha acid hop used for bittering.  The notion that no flavor or aroma come through in the finished beer just doesn't seem right to me.

[denny]

Quote from: Fire Rooster on April 05, 2023
                  Was looking for a little extra IBU's since the Hallertau Mittlefruh AA is only 2.7.

Quote from: Homebrew_kev on April 05, 2023
                   If you're looking to save a little money, you can use Columbus or CTZ as a bittering hop.
                   It'll give a big bittering punch and take up less space. That's the idea with those cryo/lupomax hops
                   less material same hop flavor.
-------------------------------------------------

With my experience or imagination, I don't follow the prevailing thought
that 20 IBU is the same regardless of the hops used when boiled for 50 min.


Cheers

How about the thought that you're unlikely to be getting the IBU you think you are anyway? Ya know the Tinseth formula for calculating IBU? The one everyone uses? We talked to Glenn about it. He used only whole hops since pellets were bad back then. So unless you use whole hops, there's no reason to think your IBU will match what the software tells you. Same for equipment and processes. Unless you use the same equipment and process,  including chilling time, your results will  necessarily match the prediction. To test it we had a bunch of different brewers brew the same recipe. We sent them hops that had just been tested, so the AA was known.. They sent us beer back to be tested. Almost none had the predicted IBU. The rest were off by as much as 50% +/-. So don't sweat it too much.

[neuse]

Definitely - IBU is a huge unknown. I still watch it (or my estimate of it) closely because it's consistent with my process, but actual IBU could be way off from what I calculate.

[denny]

Definitely - IBU is a huge unknown. I still watch it (or my estimate of it) closely because it's consistent with my process, but actual IBU could be way off from what I calculate.

And that doesn't really matter, right? All that counts is that you can relate the number you get with what it tastes like to you.

[Fire Rooster]

Quote from: Fire Rooster on April 05, 2023
                  Was looking for a little extra IBU's since the Hallertau Mittlefruh AA is only 2.7.

Quote from: Homebrew_kev on April 05, 2023
                   If you're looking to save a little money, you can use Columbus or CTZ as a bittering hop.
                   It'll give a big bittering punch and take up less space. That's the idea with those cryo/lupomax hops
                   less material same hop flavor.
-------------------------------------------------

With my experience or imagination, I don't follow the prevailing thought
that 20 IBU is the same regardless of the hops used when boiled for 50 min.


Cheers

How about the thought that you're unlikely to be getting the IBU you think you are anyway? Ya know the Tinseth formula for calculating IBU? The one everyone uses? We talked to Glenn about it. He used only whole hops since pellets were bad back then. So unless you use whole hops, there's no reason to think your IBU will match what the software tells you. Same for equipment and processes. Unless you use the same equipment and process,  including chilling time, your results will  necessarily match the prediction. To test it we had a bunch of different brewers brew the same recipe. We sent them hops that had just been tested, so the AA was known.. They sent us beer back to be tested. Almost none had the predicted IBU. The rest were off by as much as 50% +/-. So don't sweat it too much.

Yes I'm aware of the formula.  I use my own designed spreadsheet to calculate IBU.
When I check it against this one https://homebrewacademy.com/ibu-calculator/
it's off by one.  I get in the ballpark with IBU, and I'm fine with it.

My point was that you can't just use just any hop for bitterness, and expect the same results.
There is a aroma and flavor carry over, and what's been described as harsh or smooth.


Cheers

[denny]

Quote from: Fire Rooster on April 05, 2023
                  Was looking for a little extra IBU's since the Hallertau Mittlefruh AA is only 2.7.

Quote from: Homebrew_kev on April 05, 2023
                   If you're looking to save a little money, you can use Columbus or CTZ as a bittering hop.
                   It'll give a big bittering punch and take up less space. That's the idea with those cryo/lupomax hops
                   less material same hop flavor.
-------------------------------------------------

With my experience or imagination, I don't follow the prevailing thought
that 20 IBU is the same regardless of the hops used when boiled for 50 min.


Cheers

How about the thought that you're unlikely to be getting the IBU you think you are anyway? Ya know the Tinseth formula for calculating IBU? The one everyone uses? We talked to Glenn about it. He used only whole hops since pellets were bad back then. So unless you use whole hops, there's no reason to think your IBU will match what the software tells you. Same for equipment and processes. Unless you use the same equipment and process,  including chilling time, your results will  necessarily match the prediction. To test it we had a bunch of different brewers brew the same recipe. We sent them hops that had just been tested, so the AA was known.. They sent us beer back to be tested. Almost none had the predicted IBU. The rest were off by as much as 50% +/-. So don't sweat it too much.

Yes I'm aware of the formula.  I use my own designed spreadsheet to calculate IBU.
When I check it against this one https://homebrewacademy.com/ibu-calculator/
it's off by one.  I get in the ballpark with IBU, and I'm fine with it.

My point was that you can't just use just any hop for bitterness, and expect the same results.
There is a aroma and flavor carry over, and what's been described as harsh or smooth.


Cheers

You don't know either is accurate until you get your beer analyzed. My point is that there's a lot about hops that isn't understood.

[Fire Rooster]

Quote from: Fire Rooster on April 05, 2023
                  Was looking for a little extra IBU's since the Hallertau Mittlefruh AA is only 2.7.

Quote from: Homebrew_kev on April 05, 2023
                   If you're looking to save a little money, you can use Columbus or CTZ as a bittering hop.
                   It'll give a big bittering punch and take up less space. That's the idea with those cryo/lupomax hops
                   less material same hop flavor.
-------------------------------------------------

With my experience or imagination, I don't follow the prevailing thought
that 20 IBU is the same regardless of the hops used when boiled for 50 min.


Cheers

How about the thought that you're unlikely to be getting the IBU you think you are anyway? Ya know the Tinseth formula for calculating IBU? The one everyone uses? We talked to Glenn about it. He used only whole hops since pellets were bad back then. So unless you use whole hops, there's no reason to think your IBU will match what the software tells you. Same for equipment and processes. Unless you use the same equipment and process,  including chilling time, your results will  necessarily match the prediction. To test it we had a bunch of different brewers brew the same recipe. We sent them hops that had just been tested, so the AA was known.. They sent us beer back to be tested. Almost none had the predicted IBU. The rest were off by as much as 50% +/-. So don't sweat it too much.

Yes I'm aware of the formula.  I use my own designed spreadsheet to calculate IBU.
When I check it against this one https://homebrewacademy.com/ibu-calculator/
it's off by one.  I get in the ballpark with IBU, and I'm fine with it.

My point was that you can't just use just any hop for bitterness, and expect the same results.
There is a aroma and flavor carry over, and what's been described as harsh or smooth.


Cheers

You don't know either is accurate until you get your beer analyzed. My point is that there's a lot about hops that isn't understood.

Oh I see.

Thanks