[Megary]

might also try different yeast choices too. ill say i used bry97 and i felt like the malts pretty clearly came through, i didnt plan on getting any esters, just wanted clean ale

I definitely need a different yeast.  The best Porters I have made in the past were with yeasts that leave a nice body and mouthfeel.  Windsor, 1450, 1968.  1028 certainly didn't bring any of that to the party, imo.

I'm a BRY-97 fan for sure and I find it the perfect yeast for my house Stout, but I'm hesitant to try it in this Porter because I don't believe it will give me that chewiness I'm looking for.  Could be I'm overthinking this though.

[Megary]

Maybe you could try a small amount of cocoa nibs, just enough for the chocolate flavor but not enough to identify the source?

I considered that, but I can't believe that I'm unable to land in the caramel-toffee-chocolate zone using malt only.  How hard can it be?   

Again, there's nothing wrong with the beer I made but it is definitely more chocolate-coffee-slight roast and in hindsight, the Brown malt at 14% is an easy place to point the finger.  I think fred is right.  I just need to land on the correct mix of chocolate and crystal malts.

[tommymorris]

You may have answered this already, if, so sorry for the duplicate question. Is there a particular commercial beer that has the caramel toffee chocolate flavor you like?

[jeffy]

Do a search for the recipe for Cigar City Maduro Brown Ale. It has won several times at GABF as an English Brown Porter. It has a nice chocolate flavor, very little roast and a lot of mouthfeel from using flaked oats.
I made a batch last year - 65% pale malt, 12.5% Briess 60L, 7.5% flaked oats, 7.5% Wy Vienna, 5% Crisp Brown, 2.5% Briess Chocolate
I used BRY-97 and about 26 IBU's of Clusters and Edelweisse
If I made it again I would decrease the oats, but other than that, it made a pretty good English Porter.

[Megary]

You may have answered this already, if, so sorry for the duplicate question. Is there a particular commercial beer that has the caramel toffee chocolate flavor you like?

One doesn't immediately come to mind, no.  Maybe I hate this style??   

I've never had Fuller's London Porter because it just isn't available near me and SS Taddy Porter is a fine beer but I find that a bit on the roasty side.  Yuengling Porter is a bit of a throwback and does have a caramel-chocolate thing going for it, but it lacks body.

I'm open to suggestions.

[Megary]

Do a search for the recipe for Cigar City Maduro Brown Ale. It has won several times at GABF as an English Brown Porter. It has a nice chocolate flavor, very little roast and a lot of mouthfeel from using flaked oats.
I made a batch last year - 65% pale malt, 12.5% Briess 60L, 7.5% flaked oats, 7.5% Wy Vienna, 5% Crisp Brown, 2.5% Briess Chocolate
I used BRY-97 and about 26 IBU's of Clusters and Edelweisse
If I made it again I would decrease the oats, but other than that, it made a pretty good English Porter.

Will do!  Thanks for the suggestion.

[fredthecat]

youngs double chocolate stout has some kind of chocolate extract added to it and it is a powerfully chocolatey beer without being american-craft style extreme.

if youre searching for the chocolate-caramel thing, get that first and think of mouthfeel second. id totally recommend a "clean" ale yeast. if you want english maybe wlp007? but dont overthink it.

i infused UNTOASTED (my mistake at the time) cacao nibs in vodka for a while and added this infusion to some bottles of that chocolate stout. it took a long time for it to come together, and overall i prefered the non-added. the vodka tincture itself did not taste chocolatey to me but sort of harsh-nutty to me.

speaking of extracts, if you really want chocolate (and caramel) maybe just buy a chocolate flavour additive? i hear theyre really good and chocolate is a well known flavour. also people swear by the notion that adding a small amount of vanilla extract interplays with any chocolate notes and reinforces it as "chocolate" in your mind.

[Megary]

Thanks for all the suggestions.

My issue is not getting chocolate, I'm getting that just fine.  My issue is pairing that with some milder flavors.  Seems every time I get chocolate, I also get coffee and roast tagging along.  Maybe that's a function of the Crisp Pale Chocolate I'm using, or the percentage that I'm using it at??  Or, in this case, it very well could have been the heavy-handed usage of Crisp Brown (a malt I love, by the way).

So, I'm aiming for the Caramel-Toffee-Nutty-Raisin spectrum with some subtle notes of Chocolate and no coffee/roast.

I did a cacao nibs tincture twice and wasn't impressed either time.  Undoubtedly I did it wrong, but I have no intentions of making nibs a permanent part of any recipe.  I'll just use them every time I get on a good brewing run and find myself in need of a good humbling.     Vanilla is a nice suggestion and I agree, it is a great flavor enhancer.  Still, I think I can get this right with grain only.

The recipe that jeffy posted for CC Maduro Brown is intriguing.  It seems to take a lot of suggestions hidden in this thread and make sense of them - push the crystal, drop the Brown, make the recipe a bit busier to bring in a variety of flavors.  Maybe needs a tweak to push it out of Brown territory, but there's something there.  Too bad I have to drive 80 miles to find one in the wild.  Hopefully I'll get to inspect a Maduro Brown before I give this Porter another attempt in the fall.

[Megary]

Without re-reading 3 pages, I'm about to try again to land an English Porter in the caramel/toffee/chocolate zone without getting into coffee and roast notes.

Last time I failed (and the dozen times before that!).  So...here I go again, chasing my tail.   

Here was my last attempt:
68% Maris Otter
14% Crisp Brown
9% 65L English Crystal
7% Pale Chocolate (220L)
2% Victory

≈ 30 IBU's Pilgrim

WY1028

Tasting notes were chocolate and coffee/roast, which is fine of course, but not what I was after.  Body and "mouthfeel" need a bit of work as well.
------------------------------------

My next attempt, this weekend, will look like this:

64% Deer Creek Pale
13% 65L English Crystal
7% Torrified Wheat
7% Deer Creek Double Dutch (20L Munich)
5% Brown
3% Pale Chocolate (220L)
1% Chocolate (500L)

≈ 28 IBU's Northern Brewer (A bit upset I couldn't find Pilgrim again)

WY1968

------------------------------------

The idea is to drop that Brown malt way back to cut the coffee flavor, up the crystal to try and bring in a bit more caramel, add the Munich and wheat for body purposes, and change the yeast for added body as well.

No doubt I've got it this time.  I can feel it. 

[BrewBama]

Have you tried adding the roast malts at vorlauf?  It may not be the recipe but the technique to bring out the character you’re looking for.

Just an idea.

[Megary]

Have you tried adding the roast malts at vorlauf?  It may not be the recipe but the technique to bring out the character you’re looking for.

Just an idea.

I do a simple BIAB…mash then pull the grains then proceed to boil.  By “Vorlauf” I assume you would mean adding the roast malts after pulling the main grains, but before I add heat and head to boil?  Kind of a “steeping grains” process?

It’s a very interesting idea.  I assume you believe this steeping of the dark malts would limit the roastiness that ends up in the finished beer?  I don’t think I’d ever want to do this for a Stout, where I want all that coffee, roasty goodness, but for what I’m after here, I can see it working.  If I don’t get it right this time, I’ll certainly give it a shot next time.

Thanks for the idea!

[BrewBama]

You could just cap the mash with the roasted grains and continue to mash for X minutes. 

…or you could steep them separately in the wort after you lauter but before boil begins.

…or steep them separately and add the liquid to your wort.

Try different techniques with the same recipe and save a sample of each. In the end taste them all side-by-side to see which you prefer.

[ynotbrusum]

At one time, Gordon Strong preferred adding any dark grains late in the mash - vorlauf or equivalent.  It may be an issue of pH driving that for the main mash, I don’t recall precisely.  I have gone either way with dark grain additions and settled on Sinamar for dark lagers for the most part and late add for dark grains in ales.

[Megary]

My next attempt, this weekend, will look like this:

64% Deer Creek Pale
13% 65L English Crystal
7% Torrified Wheat
7% Deer Creek Double Dutch (20L Munich)
5% Brown
3% Pale Chocolate (220L)
1% Chocolate (500L)

≈ 28 IBU's Northern Brewer (A bit upset I couldn't find Pilgrim again)

WY1968

The idea is to drop that Brown malt way back to cut the coffee flavor, up the crystal to try and bring in a bit more caramel, add the Munich and wheat for body purposes, and change the yeast for added body as well.

So the above beer has been in the keg for a few weeks.  It was a big step forward, though I didn't get all the way there.  The coffee and roast have been tamped down sufficiently and a nice chocolate caramel flavor is present.  What I didn't get was the body and chewy mouthfeel I was looking for.  It does taste a bit "thin".

This was mashed at 152° for an hour and fermented with 1968 London ESB.  I ended up with 73% attenuation, a little more than I was expecting, but not out of line I don't think.  Holding a glass to the light, the beer is crystal clear.  Last time I used 1028 and got 75% attenuation.

The flavors from the grain bill seem to be right around the bullseye, but I'm thinking the torrified wheat probably didn't do much.  The beer pours with a great head that hangs around long enough.

So how best to increase that chewiness?
1. Mash higher, say 155-156°?
2. Different yeast to lower attenuation?  Windsor, 1469, S-04?
3. Flaked Barley as a sub for the torrified wheat?  Flaked Oats?  Never had much success with oats, unless an oily-ness is considered a success.
4. Lower the carbonation?  I carbonated at 12psi and just left it there.
5. Adjust the water?  This beer, after additions, had a "predicted" Cl = 140 and SO4 = 56?

Definitely an overall step in the right direction and a nice beer to drink.  Not quite "perfect" though.

[BrewBama]

Maybe flaked barley or dextrin malt.

Mashing high could work theoretically but I believe yeast has more impact.

I like Lallemand ESB yeast to leave residual maltotriose.  I think Windsor may add unwanted esters.

You could try lower carbonation and if you don’t like it bump it up.