[Megary]

I've made quite a few English Porters, and all have ranged from acceptable to pretty good.  But I can honestly say I've never made a great one.  Not for the lack of trying.

Goal: It's always good to have an endgame in mind, so what am I after exactly? My idea for an English Porter is something that falls in the cookie-biscuit-caramel-toffee-chocolate range.  Can be a bit sweet but not overly so, with noticeable body and mouthfeel.  Hops are there just to balance the malt, not for show.  English yeast esters are fine, if they show up.  NO roast or coffee, as those are for Stouts in my opinion.

So how do I get there?  My thoughts are...

Grain Bill:  I've tried many combinations, some grists far simpler than others, some quite complex.  I haven't found complexity to necessarily give me better or worse results, just different.  But I have found that some malts do not move the needle in the direction I'm trying to go...C120/Melanoidin/Special B/Roasted Barley/Carafas/High L Chocolates/Black.  On the other hand, Brown Malt (Crisp) has been a step in the right direction, as has Pale Chocolate, still the only Chocolate Malt that I get clear notes of Chocolate from.

Hops: EKG, Fuggles, Bramling Cross, Pilgrim, Northern Brewer.  Not sure it matters much here.  I'm just looking for some bitterness to balance the grain bill, not to stick my nose in the ground.    Magnum would be fine.

Yeast: The best Porters I have made were with Windsor, 1450 and 1968.  By far the worst Porter I made was with Notty.  For me, it was a mouthfeel thing as opposed to any of the yeasts contributing any noticeable esters.  Notty just left nothing to chew on, if you get my point.

Water: Lean into Cl and mash around 5.5pH. 

Process: I usually just mash around 152.  I can't buy into a grain bill like this getting mashed high for body purposes.  My experience is that that is the yeast's job, but I'm willing to listen.  Keg to around 2-2.25 vols and serve a bit warmer, if possible, say 45°F minimum.

-----------------------------------

To that end, the blueprint for my next attempt is below.  Any comments are appreciated.  Straighten me out!   

SRM - 25
ABV - 5%

74% Maris Otter
11% Medium British Crystal (≈55-60L)
8% Crisp Brown
8% Pale Chocolate (220L)
(Other grains on hand that might be useful: 10L Munich, 20L Munich, Victory, Torrified Wheat, Flaked Oats and Flaked Barley)

≈ 30 IBU's (I have Pilgrim or Magnum on hand)

WY1028 (Already purchased and unfortunately there's no going back here)

[Kevin]

One of the best I've ever made comes from Ron Pattinson. I use it as the base for all my porters... chocolate... cherry... etc.

9 lbs Pale Malt
1 lb 12 oz Brown Malt
12 oz Black Malt (not patent)
2 oz East Kent Goldings (6.4%) boil 60 minutes

1 Liter starter using WLP002 English Ale Yeast

Mashed at 152 for 60 minutes.

If I remember correctly it comes from his book "The Homebrewers Guide to Vintage Beers".

[Don]

I made a Imperial Stout recently using Chocolate Rye, first time using that malt, and gave a nice chocolate flavor I hadn't encountered before...

[Megary]

One of the best I've ever made comes from Ron Pattinson. I use it as the base for all my porters... chocolate... cherry... etc.

9 lbs Pale Malt
1 lb 12 oz Brown Malt
12 oz Black Malt (not patent)
2 oz East Kent Goldings (6.4%) boil 60 minutes

1 Liter starter using WLP002 English Ale Yeast

Mashed at 152 for 60 minutes.

If I remember correctly it comes from his book "The Homebrewers Guide to Vintage Beers".

Do you remember exactly what you used here?  Brand?  Black Malt, to me, is Black Patent.  But there are so many malts, I’m sure I’ve missed quite a few.

[mabrungard]

London porters were revered around the world and a significant reason was probably the water they used.  Brewers around the world tried to duplicate them, but in the 1700's and 1800's, they didn't have the knowledge of what water quality was used in those London breweries.

Porter breweries in London all used 'bore water' aka: well water.  That contrasts with River Thames water that the pale and bitter breweries used.  There is a comprehensive article on London water in an issue of Zymurgy from about 5+ years ago.  The bottom line for the London well water is that it had sufficient alkalinity along with a modest dose of sodium and chloride.  An estimate of the water is provided below.  That data came from a review is dozens of well records in the historic central London area.

Ca:20
Mg: 5
Na: 175
SO4: 70
Cl: 125
HCO3: 265

As usual, ignore the HCO3 content as a target for brewing. Base the HCO3 content on what is needed to produce an acceptable mashing pH (ideally in the 5.6 to 5.8 range). 

I've brewed London Porter with the rest of the ionic content and its good, but I'd say that reducing the sodium and chloride produces a better porter. Say half the concentrations shown above.   

[tommymorris]

I've made quite a few English Porters, and all have ranged from acceptable to pretty good.  But I can honestly say I've never made a great one.  Not for the lack of trying.

Goal: It's always good to have an endgame in mind, so what am I after exactly? My idea for an English Porter is something that falls in the cookie-biscuit-caramel-toffee-chocolate range.  Can be a bit sweet but not overly so, with noticeable body and mouthfeel.  Hops are there just to balance the malt, not for show.  English yeast esters are fine, if they show up.  NO roast or coffee, as those are for Stouts in my opinion.

So how do I get there?  My thoughts are...

Grain Bill:  I've tried many combinations, some grists far simpler than others, some quite complex.  I haven't found complexity to necessarily give me better or worse results, just different.  But I have found that some malts do not move the needle in the direction I'm trying to go...C120/Melanoidin/Special B/Roasted Barley/Carafas/High L Chocolates/Black.  On the other hand, Brown Malt (Crisp) has been a step in the right direction, as has Pale Chocolate, still the only Chocolate Malt that I get clear notes of Chocolate from.

Hops: EKG, Fuggles, Bramling Cross, Pilgrim, Northern Brewer.  Not sure it matters much here.  I'm just looking for some bitterness to balance the grain bill, not to stick my nose in the ground.    Magnum would be fine.

Yeast: The best Porters I have made were with Windsor, 1450 and 1968.  By far the worst Porter I made was with Notty.  For me, it was a mouthfeel thing as opposed to any of the yeasts contributing any noticeable esters.  Notty just left nothing to chew on, if you get my point.

Water: Lean into Cl and mash around 5.5pH. 

Process: I usually just mash around 152.  I can't buy into a grain bill like this getting mashed high for body purposes.  My experience is that that is the yeast's job, but I'm willing to listen.  Keg to around 2-2.25 vols and serve a bit warmer, if possible, say 45°F minimum.

-----------------------------------

To that end, the blueprint for my next attempt is below.  Any comments are appreciated.  Straighten me out!   

SRM - 25
ABV - 5%

74% Maris Otter
11% Medium British Crystal (≈55-60L)
8% Crisp Brown
8% Pale Chocolate (220L)
(Other grains on hand that might be useful: 10L Munich, 20L Munich, Victory, Torrified Wheat, Flaked Oats and Flaked Barley)

≈ 30 IBU's (I have Pilgrim or Magnum on hand)

WY1028 (Already purchased and unfortunately there's no going back here)

The 4 malts you have in the blue print of your next recipe are basically what I use. I vary the percentages. I actually like Briess dark chocolate malt.

I have also tried special roast in place of brown malt. That makes a good beer but probably not a traditional brown porter.

Another thing I do that is non-traditional is add some hops at flameout. I like cascade (way out of style) or Willamette.

I think English yeast that leaves body is important (WLP002, S04). I think American West Coast ale yeasts are out of place as they dry out the beer and accentuate roast flavors. I prefer the roast flavors to be muted/softened by the yeast esters.

I really like this style and think there is a lot of room for experimenting.

[fredthecat]

SRM - 25
ABV - 5%

74% Maris Otter
11% Medium British Crystal (≈55-60L)
8% Crisp Brown
8% Pale Chocolate (220L)
(Other grains on hand that might be useful: 10L Munich, 20L Munich, Victory, Torrified Wheat, Flaked Oats and Flaked Barley)

≈ 30 IBU's (I have Pilgrim or Magnum on hand)

30 IBUs maybe, but IMHO go higher especially if its 5.5% ABV or higher. personally i find pale chocolate neat but one-dimensional. and you would be sitting around 20-25SRM with that if colour concerns you at all. imho that looks like a brown ale with a lot of roasty/nutty components.

porter is such a range, if that is the kind of porter you want then go for it. but porter for me has always had twangy-sweet/bitter roast/assertive dark notes in it. this is just my experience and of course opinion, but porter to me is like a less restrained stout, less smooth. thats how i mentally separate them, mainly based on the stouts/porters i had when during the first many years i was getting into beer styles. i think i said in another thread but to hit fullers london porter stylistically as a good starting place and get the water right would make the kind of porter (english) i believe you are looking for, and that would be like the recipe you have above but potentially up the IBU a bit, switch the pale chocolate to black malt or 400-450L chocolate malt and at least IMHO consider cutting back the crystal % and/or adding a bit of sucrose/syrup to lower the FG. just my 2 cents for what i like in a style i have made many of! Good Luck

One of the best I've ever made comes from Ron Pattinson. I use it as the base for all my porters... chocolate... cherry... etc.

9 lbs Pale Malt
1 lb 12 oz Brown Malt
12 oz Black Malt (not patent)
2 oz East Kent Goldings (6.4%) boil 60 minutes

1 Liter starter using WLP002 English Ale Yeast

Mashed at 152 for 60 minutes.

If I remember correctly it comes from his book "The Homebrewers Guide to Vintage Beers".

that would make a really good london porter, but you'd struggle with attenuation potentially. though im not an expert with 002, but simply the nearly 2lbs of brown malt is a lot of barely fermentable in addition to the black. im going with a cali liquid yeast/repitch or even just some BRY97 next porter i do. im not so concerned about strong esters in it anymore. imho you could tweak that later.

Do you remember exactly what you used here?  Brand?  Black Malt, to me, is Black Patent.  But there are so many malts, I’m sure I’ve missed quite a few.

black malt is not "harsh/ashy/burnt-astringent" imho. for a reference im using thomas fawcett and i get chewy, extra dark roast coffee, clean burnt roast, and i feel like this depth of related compounds including some kind of phenolic (not bad) things going on in the background. i use TF because its the black malt i can get, ive used others before without getting bad flavours as well. i prefer it over RB and only use chocolate malt (400-450L) when i want to taste chocolate malt, which IS in some porters and stouts.

Ca:20
Mg: 5
Na: 175
SO4: 70
Cl: 125
HCO3: 265

As usual, ignore the HCO3 content as a target for brewing. Base the HCO3 content on what is needed to produce an acceptable mashing pH (ideally in the 5.6 to 5.8 range). 

I've brewed London Porter with the rest of the ionic content and its good, but I'd say that reducing the sodium and chloride produces a better porter. Say half the concentrations shown above.

you mentioned altering the above mineral counts, re NA/CL and the pH especially yes. absolutely.

[BrewBama]

Just a data point; in his book British Real Ale, Graham Wheeler lists Fuller’s London Porter as:

76.1% Pale
12% Brown Malt
9.9% Crystal
2% Chocolate Malt

[dmtaylor]

Your base recipe looks very good.  I would reverse the amounts on the Crystal malt and the brown malts.  Also, a friend of mine uses up to 33% brown malt and I love that beer.  If you want to avoid roasty, stick with less than 20% brown malt, but otherwise don't be afraid to use a pretty good amount.

[Megary]

So much to digest here people, thank you very much.

The bottom line for the London well water is that it had sufficient alkalinity along with a modest dose of sodium and chloride.  An estimate of the water is provided below.  That data came from a review is dozens of well records in the historic central London area.

Ca:20
Mg: 5
Na: 175
SO4: 70
Cl: 125
HCO3: 265

As usual, ignore the HCO3 content as a target for brewing. Base the HCO3 content on what is needed to produce an acceptable mashing pH (ideally in the 5.6 to 5.8 range). 

I've brewed London Porter with the rest of the ionic content and its good, but I'd say that reducing the sodium and chloride produces a better porter. Say half the concentrations shown above.

This is a great reference and adjustments have been made to what I will use for brewing water.  Even at half that, I don't think I've ever pushed Na that far!

[Megary]

30 IBUs maybe, but IMHO go higher especially if its 5.5% ABV or higher. personally i find pale chocolate neat but one-dimensional. and you would be sitting around 20-25SRM with that if colour concerns you at all. imho that looks like a brown ale with a lot of roasty/nutty components.

porter is such a range, if that is the kind of porter you want then go for it. but porter for me has always had twangy-sweet/bitter roast/assertive dark notes in it. this is just my experience and of course opinion, but porter to me is like a less restrained stout, less smooth. thats how i mentally separate them, mainly based on the stouts/porters i had when during the first many years i was getting into beer styles. i think i said in another thread but to hit fullers london porter stylistically as a good starting place and get the water right would make the kind of porter (english) i believe you are looking for, and that would be like the recipe you have above but potentially up the IBU a bit, switch the pale chocolate to black malt or 400-450L chocolate malt and at least IMHO consider cutting back the crystal % and/or adding a bit of sucrose/syrup to lower the FG. just my 2 cents for what i like in a style i have made many of! Good Luck

black malt is not "harsh/ashy/burnt-astringent" imho. for a reference im using thomas fawcett and i get chewy, extra dark roast coffee, clean burnt roast, and i feel like this depth of related compounds including some kind of phenolic (not bad) things going on in the background. i use TF because its the black malt i can get, ive used others before without getting bad flavours as well. i prefer it over RB and only use chocolate malt (400-450L) when i want to taste chocolate malt, which IS in some porters and stouts.

Thanks for this post.

Regarding SRM...my recipe calculates at 25 and I think that is right in a Brown/English Porter's wheelhouse.  Your comment regarding it looking like a Brown Ale does give me pause however since the last Porter I made turned out to be a pretty good Brown Ale.   
As far as IBU's go, I was just looking for a BU:GU ratio of around .5-.6, and for a 5% beer, 30IBU's gets me there.

I make a lot of Stouts and Porters as well and I'm quite content with the main Stout recipe I landed on.  I brew it over and over again, and not surprisingly, it's on tap right now.  It's not far removed from the standard grist of 70/20/10 - 2-Row/Flaked/Roasted Barley.  What I like best about it is that it has clear roast notes without being astringent and it finishes dry and crushable. That beer has come to define a Stout for me.

For this English Porter, I want to make sure that any roast is kept to a minimum, understanding fully that some roast is almost inevitable when using dark malts.  But I want that in the background with some chewy toffee/caramel/chocolate up front.  When I have used Black Malt and especially High L Chocolate Malts before the roast became too prominent for me.  Not far enough removed from the house Stout.  Don't get me wrong, the beers were still good, it just wasn't what I was after.  All that said, different maltsters, different malt characteristics, so I could have just been using the wrong "Chocolate".  The 220L (Crisp) Pale Chocolate that I have landed on is the only Chocolate Malt that I have used that gives me clear chocolate notes.

Duly noted on the reduction of the Crystal, however.

[Megary]

I think English yeast that leaves body is important (WLP002, S04). I think American West Coast ale yeasts are out of place as they dry out the beer and accentuate roast flavors. I prefer the roast flavors to be muted/softened by the yeast esters.

I really like this style and think there is a lot of room for experimenting.

My thoughts exactly.  My Stout is fermented with BRY-97 and I think it's the perfect yeast for that beer.  For this Porter, I want something entirely different.  As I mentioned, Windsor, 1450 and 1968 have given me my best results.  I haven't tried 002 and will certainly keep that in mind.  S-04 and I haven't ever gotten along, though I'm sure I was to blame.   

Would love to hear anyone's thoughts on 1028.  I don't remember my reasoning for choosing it other than Wyeast does suggest it for an English Porter.  I'm a little concerned that it may not leave the body/mouthfeel behind that I'm looking for.

[denny]

Anybody have the Durden Circle book? IIRC, it lists insanely high IBU for London porter. It would be great if someone could double check that.

[Megary]

Just a data point; in his book British Real Ale, Graham Wheeler lists Fuller’s London Porter as:

76.1% Pale
12% Brown Malt
9.9% Crystal
2% Chocolate Malt

I'm sure this guy knows his stuff, but recipes like that always drive me crazy.  What Crystal?  What Chocolate?   
Gives me hope that I am closing in, however.

[denny]

Just a data point; in his book British Real Ale, Graham Wheeler lists Fuller’s London Porter as:

76.1% Pale
12% Brown Malt
9.9% Crystal
2% Chocolate Malt

I'm sure this guy knows his stuff, but recipes like that always drive me crazy.  What Crystal?  What Chocolate?   
Gives me hope that I am closing in, however.

That's the best you'll get from Wheeler.