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Author Topic: Dry yeast marketing ploy or not?  (Read 2633 times)

Offline fredthecat

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Re: Dry yeast marketing ploy or not?
« Reply #15 on: April 30, 2023, 05:36:17 pm »
I think the one myth that seems to persist is that you can't make a starter with dry yeast. Koln does have a higher pitch rate than some of Lallemand's other yeasts, something about drying the kolsch strain that yields fewer cells. So, I make a 1 liter vitality starter. I have done this many times with dry yeasts, and I don't see a problem with it. Even Lallemand in their best practices brochure gives instructions on how to make a starter with them.

My latest kolsch was 1.048. I made a vitality starter; a vigorous fermentation started in less than 24 hours, and now it tastes lovely, just like a kolsch should.. Some you can direct pitch, but if you can't, make a starter. Easy as that, really!

yeah ive heard such good things about it, and since my liquid yeast prices here got jacked to 3x the price of dry i intend to do this with koln.
i frequently make big beers and i actually made an 8 litre starter of 1.037 gravity wort with the second runnings from a big beer and a 1/2lb of DME. it was on an old yeast pouch and i just wanted to make sure it it had gone through a full generation before pitching it in a normal gravity/size beer. it worked really well imho.



Offline 4dogbrewer

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Re: Dry yeast marketing ploy or not?
« Reply #16 on: May 01, 2023, 04:35:04 am »
Where I live, dry yeast is inching up to the same price as liquid yeast. That is why I use liquid yeast for lagers.

Offline goose

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Re: Dry yeast marketing ploy or not?
« Reply #17 on: May 01, 2023, 08:38:20 am »
My practice for a normal ale is one pack for 5 gallons.  If it is something big like an Imperial stout then two packs in 5 gallons.   have never used dry yeast in a lager, but I would most likely use two packs. two packs in 5 gallons. I also sprinkle the yeast on top of the wort when the fermenter is half full then finish filling it.  It hydrates the yeast very well this way and I fill my conical fermenters from the top and use a piece of a copper pipe with a whole bunch of holes drilled in it to oxygenate the wort.  I know you don't need O2 with dry yeast, but I have never had any problems using the above methods.  Just my humble opinion.
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Offline denny

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Re: Dry yeast marketing ploy or not?
« Reply #18 on: May 01, 2023, 09:22:48 am »


I think the one myth that seems to persist is that you can't make a starter with dry yeast. Koln does have a higher pitch rate than some of Lallemand's other yeasts, something about drying the kolsch strain that yields fewer cells. So, I make a 1 liter vitality starter. I have done this many times with dry yeasts, and I don't see a problem with it. Even Lallemand in their best practices brochure gives instructions on how to make a starter with them.

My latest kolsch was 1.048. I made a vitality starter; a vigorous fermentation started in less than 24 hours, and now it tastes lovely, just like a kolsch should.. Some you can direct pitch, but if you can't, make a starter. Easy as that, really!

Of course you can make a starter with dry yeast. What's debatable is if it's a good idea.

If you have one pack of Köln dry yeast and a 1.048 beer and about 6g of wort, it's a great idea !
Otherwise, you need to use 3 packs.
Or pray to the underpitching gods.

"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts." - Sherlock Holmes (A. Conan Doyle)

I question the need for 3 packs
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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Offline lupulus

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Re: Dry yeast marketing ploy or not?
« Reply #19 on: May 01, 2023, 09:39:12 am »


I think the one myth that seems to persist is that you can't make a starter with dry yeast. Koln does have a higher pitch rate than some of Lallemand's other yeasts, something about drying the kolsch strain that yields fewer cells. So, I make a 1 liter vitality starter. I have done this many times with dry yeasts, and I don't see a problem with it. Even Lallemand in their best practices brochure gives instructions on how to make a starter with them.

My latest kolsch was 1.048. I made a vitality starter; a vigorous fermentation started in less than 24 hours, and now it tastes lovely, just like a kolsch should.. Some you can direct pitch, but if you can't, make a starter. Easy as that, really!

Of course you can make a starter with dry yeast. What's debatable is if it's a good idea.

If you have one pack of Köln dry yeast and a 1.048 beer and about 6g of wort, it's a great idea !
Otherwise, you need to use 3 packs.
Or pray to the underpitching gods.

"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts." - Sherlock Holmes (A. Conan Doyle)

I question the need for 3 packs
That's the whole point of the post :-)
Their recommendation is: Oxygenation is not necessary as long as you use 3 packs. They want to sell more yeast.

"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts." - Sherlock Holmes (A. Conan Doyle)

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Offline denny

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Re: Dry yeast marketing ploy or not?
« Reply #20 on: May 01, 2023, 09:51:17 am »


I think the one myth that seems to persist is that you can't make a starter with dry yeast. Koln does have a higher pitch rate than some of Lallemand's other yeasts, something about drying the kolsch strain that yields fewer cells. So, I make a 1 liter vitality starter. I have done this many times with dry yeasts, and I don't see a problem with it. Even Lallemand in their best practices brochure gives instructions on how to make a starter with them.

My latest kolsch was 1.048. I made a vitality starter; a vigorous fermentation started in less than 24 hours, and now it tastes lovely, just like a kolsch should.. Some you can direct pitch, but if you can't, make a starter. Easy as that, really!

Of course you can make a starter with dry yeast. What's debatable is if it's a good idea.

If you have one pack of Köln dry yeast and a 1.048 beer and about 6g of wort, it's a great idea !
Otherwise, you need to use 3 packs.
Or pray to the underpitching gods.

"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts." - Sherlock Holmes (A. Conan Doyle)

I question the need for 3 packs
That's the whole point of the post :-)
Their recommendation is: Oxygenation is not necessary as long as you use 3 packs. They want to sell more yeast.

"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts." - Sherlock Holmes (A. Conan Doyle)

I don't find oxygenation necessary with 1 pack
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

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"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

Offline Iliff Ave

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Re: Dry yeast marketing ploy or not?
« Reply #21 on: May 01, 2023, 09:55:01 am »
My practice for a normal ale is one pack for 5 gallons.  If it is something big like an Imperial stout then two packs in 5 gallons.   have never used dry yeast in a lager, but I would most likely use two packs. two packs in 5 gallons. I also sprinkle the yeast on top of the wort when the fermenter is half full then finish filling it.  It hydrates the yeast very well this way and I fill my conical fermenters from the top and use a piece of a copper pipe with a whole bunch of holes drilled in it to oxygenate the wort.  I know you don't need O2 with dry yeast, but I have never had any problems using the above methods.  Just my humble opinion.
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Offline saaz amore

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Re: Dry yeast marketing ploy or not?
« Reply #22 on: May 02, 2023, 12:45:40 am »
I haven't used Lallemand's Köln yeast, but my understanding is that it's a special case (as Frankenbrew mentioned) and its pitch rate is considerably higher than other Lallemand yeasts. I seem to recall a Lallemand rep saying as much. I don't think you can make generalizations about a company's entire product line (or even about an entire industry) based on that one product.

I never use Lallemand's pitch calculator. One thing I noticed the first time I fiddled with it was that if the suggested pitch rate was even the tiniest bit higher than an even pack, it would bump up to the next full pack. I'm not sure whether it's still like that, but I'm thinking it might be possible that OP's suggested pitch rate was maybe something like 2.2 packs, and got bumped up to 3 packs. Just a thought.

One thing I like about dry yeast is that the pitch rates are so easy to convert to grams per liter of wort.




Offline Red over White

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Re: Dry yeast marketing ploy or not?
« Reply #23 on: May 02, 2023, 06:45:22 am »
I think the one myth that seems to persist is that you can't make a starter with dry yeast. Koln does have a higher pitch rate than some of Lallemand's other yeasts, something about drying the kolsch strain that yields fewer cells. So, I make a 1 liter vitality starter. I have done this many times with dry yeasts, and I don't see a problem with it. Even Lallemand in their best practices brochure gives instructions on how to make a starter with them.

My latest kolsch was 1.048. I made a vitality starter; a vigorous fermentation started in less than 24 hours, and now it tastes lovely, just like a kolsch should.. Some you can direct pitch, but if you can't, make a starter. Easy as that, really!

This has been my experience with 1 sachet of Köln. 500 ml vitality starter barely swirled with goferm protect evolution pitched after 4 hours into 22 liters of non aerated 1.046 wort. Down 8 points in the first 24 hours and down 24 points in the 48 hours. It's a great yeast, nice esters, drops bright quick. The vitality starter is sop for dry yeast for me. I use freshly frozen wort, it adds no extra time or effort to my brew day.


Offline Andy Farke

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Re: Dry yeast marketing ploy or not?
« Reply #24 on: May 02, 2023, 09:06:28 am »
I recently made a kölsch using the Köln dry yeast strain, and used a single (very slightly "expired") 11g packet. No issues with fermentation, and it tastes splendid, at least to my palate. I'll confess that is a single point of anecdata, though...


As a brief aside, I've tried both Köln and K-97 for my kölsch recipes, and prefer Köln. It seems to ferment just a touch cleaner, and flocculates more quickly. Anyone else have thoughts?
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Offline fredthecat

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Re: Dry yeast marketing ploy or not?
« Reply #25 on: May 02, 2023, 09:11:40 am »
I recently made a kölsch using the Köln dry yeast strain, and used a single (very slightly "expired") 11g packet. No issues with fermentation, and it tastes splendid, at least to my palate. I'll confess that is a single point of anecdata, though...


As a brief aside, I've tried both Köln and K-97 for my kölsch recipes, and prefer Köln. It seems to ferment just a touch cleaner, and flocculates more quickly. Anyone else have thoughts?

i found k-97 to be very clean ale tasting, but needs low to.mid 60s temps to attenuate properly and is the haziest/most stubbornly non-flocculant yeast i havr ever used. it would be good for hazy ipas imho but not much else. others dont like its flavour profile btw. its one of those weird old catqlogue yeasts like s-33 that just has major drawbacks and cant compete with really well rounded ones like diamond, bry97, etc

Offline Homebrew_kev

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Re: Dry yeast marketing ploy or not?
« Reply #26 on: May 02, 2023, 09:54:01 am »
I don't find oxygenation necessary with 1 pack

I agree with Denny. The yeast cells already have their sterols built up, as if oxygenation already occured. Also, by the time the yeast rehydrate and are able to absorb o2, the o2 you've put in the wort has already escaped.

If you want more cells, it's as easy as pitching another pack. It's really not that more expensive than growing more cells on your own. I am happy paying an extra 8 dollars a pack.

I did a Helles with s-189, and pitched 2 packs - came out great, and fermented out clean. I just brewed a amber lager with wyeast 2278, gave it a starter and pure o2. The dry yeast started showing signs of active fermentation a good 8-16 hour earlier than the liquid yeast.

Anyone who disparages dry yeast is just making it more difficult for themself.

Offline Andy Farke

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Re: Dry yeast marketing ploy or not?
« Reply #27 on: May 02, 2023, 10:57:28 am »
I recently made a kölsch using the Köln dry yeast strain, and used a single (very slightly "expired") 11g packet. No issues with fermentation, and it tastes splendid, at least to my palate. I'll confess that is a single point of anecdata, though...


As a brief aside, I've tried both Köln and K-97 for my kölsch recipes, and prefer Köln. It seems to ferment just a touch cleaner, and flocculates more quickly. Anyone else have thoughts?

i found k-97 to be very clean ale tasting, but needs low to.mid 60s temps to attenuate properly and is the haziest/most stubbornly non-flocculant yeast i havr ever used. it would be good for hazy ipas imho but not much else. others dont like its flavour profile btw. its one of those weird old catqlogue yeasts like s-33 that just has major drawbacks and cant compete with really well rounded ones like diamond, bry97, etc


I do like K-97 for an American wheat ale...and 100% agree on it being stubbornly non-flocculant!
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Offline Iliff Ave

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Re: Dry yeast marketing ploy or not?
« Reply #28 on: May 02, 2023, 11:22:58 am »
I recently made a kölsch using the Köln dry yeast strain, and used a single (very slightly "expired") 11g packet. No issues with fermentation, and it tastes splendid, at least to my palate. I'll confess that is a single point of anecdata, though...


As a brief aside, I've tried both Köln and K-97 for my kölsch recipes, and prefer Köln. It seems to ferment just a touch cleaner, and flocculates more quickly. Anyone else have thoughts?
I use one packet of Koln with continued success. I love that yeast

I can't stand K97...
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Offline dmtaylor

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Re: Dry yeast marketing ploy or not?
« Reply #29 on: May 02, 2023, 03:34:36 pm »
k-97... is the haziest/most stubbornly non-flocculant yeast i havr ever used... dont like its flavour profile... its one of those weird old catqlogue yeasts... that just has major drawbacks and cant compete with really well rounded ones like diamond, bry97, etc

+0.75

I've kept all the parts above that I agree with.

I'll never use K-97 again.  ANY other yeast is better than it.
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