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Author Topic: Dry yeast marketing ploy or not?  (Read 2643 times)

Offline lupulus

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Dry yeast marketing ploy or not?
« on: April 30, 2023, 08:43:34 am »
I normally use very fresh liquid yeast or make a starter from liquid yeast, so I haven't been paying close attention to dry yeast.
I have heard for a few years now that you don't oxygenate dry yeast, and didn't pay close attention until this week.
So, I go to one of the sources, Lallemand, and the verbatim message is that oxygenating dry yeast is unnecessary. Oxygenation is NOT bad, just unnecessary.
Fair enough.
Then, I go to the Lallemand pitch calculator and for a standard batch with Köln yeast, 1.048 6G 62F, I would need 3 packs of dry yeast.

For years, one pack of yeast and oxygenation was fine.  Now, the SOP is to but 3 times more yeast and skip oxygenation.

Marketing Ploy or Not Marketing Ploy.

I vote Marketing Ploy.


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Offline tommymorris

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Re: Dry yeast marketing ploy or not?
« Reply #1 on: April 30, 2023, 08:51:16 am »
I normally use very fresh liquid yeast or make a starter from liquid yeast, so I haven't been paying close attention to dry yeast.
I have heard for a few years now that you don't oxygenate dry yeast, and didn't pay close attention until this week.
So, I go to one of the sources, Lallemand, and the verbatim message is that oxygenating dry yeast is unnecessary. Oxygenation is NOT bad, just unnecessary.
Fair enough.
Then, I go to the Lallemand pitch calculator and for a standard batch with Köln yeast, 1.048 6G 62F, I would need 3 packs of dry yeast.

For years, one pack of yeast and oxygenation was fine.  Now, the SOP is to but 3 times more yeast and skip oxygenation.

Marketing Ploy or Not Marketing Ploy.

I vote Marketing Ploy.


"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts." - Sherlock Holmes (A. Conan Doyle)
I don’t know if it is a marketing ploy or they are pushing the envelope trying to bring new strains to the dry yeast market.

I do find it annoying that so many of these Lallemand products need higher pitch rates.

Offline denny

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Re: Dry yeast marketing ploy or not?
« Reply #2 on: April 30, 2023, 08:53:37 am »
Try it yourself and see if it's really needed. My experience is no.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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Offline lupulus

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Re: Dry yeast marketing ploy or not?
« Reply #3 on: April 30, 2023, 09:26:31 am »
Try it yourself and see if it's really needed. My experience is no.
Well, you're voting Marketing Ploy then.

"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts." - Sherlock Holmes (A. Conan Doyle)

“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.”  Neil deGrasse Tyson

Offline denny

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Re: Dry yeast marketing ploy or not?
« Reply #4 on: April 30, 2023, 09:49:41 am »
Try it yourself and see if it's really needed. My experience is no.
Well, you're voting Marketing Ploy then.

"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts." - Sherlock Holmes (A. Conan Doyle)

No, I'm not. I'm saying they tell you the science and you can decide what you want to do with the info.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

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Offline erockrph

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Re: Dry yeast marketing ploy or not?
« Reply #5 on: April 30, 2023, 11:46:21 am »
I've always been skeptical of the numbers coming out of the Lallemand calculator. I feel like dry yeast quality has increased significantly since when I started brewing, so it's interesting that they recommend a larger pitch than the old rule of thumb that 11g of dry yeast is good for a 5 gallon batch up to 1.060. If these numbers are truly valid, then they should increase their package size to like 15 or 18g to align with their recommendations.

Side note - I've never seen a pitch calculator that included fermentation temp as a factor for determining pitch rate, although it does make sense.
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Offline Kevin

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Re: Dry yeast marketing ploy or not?
« Reply #6 on: April 30, 2023, 12:15:59 pm »
And too... when was their pitch calculator created and has it been updated?
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Offline dmtaylor

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Re: Dry yeast marketing ploy or not?
« Reply #7 on: April 30, 2023, 12:41:10 pm »
I use dry yeast a lot.  I've used pretty much everything from Fermentis and Lallemand... but have not yet tried Koln.

In my experience, 1/2 pack is enough for 5-6 gallons of standard strength ale (warm fermentation), or 1 pack is enough for 5-6 gallons of lager (assuming cool fermentation).  I think I've heard that Koln needs a higher pitch rate, and you're probably going to ferment it on the ~cooler side for an ale, someplace in between ale & lager with respect to fermentation temperature and standard pitch rates.  As such, you might want to use 2 packs for 6 gallons.

But I think 3 packs is a little overboard.  Still, this is a bit of a guess on my part, not having used this yeast yet.

I always sprinkle on top.  No need for oxygenation or rehydration or any other babying.  Dry yeast is really tough stuff in most circumstances, keeps for many years and perhaps decades in refrigeration.  Try that with an old unopened pack of White Labs or Wyeast... heh... good luck.
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Offline lupulus

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Re: Dry yeast marketing ploy or not?
« Reply #8 on: April 30, 2023, 01:28:16 pm »
And too... when was their pitch calculator created and has it been updated?
I don't know. Sorry.

"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts." - Sherlock Holmes (A. Conan Doyle)

“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.”  Neil deGrasse Tyson

Offline fredthecat

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Re: Dry yeast marketing ploy or not?
« Reply #9 on: April 30, 2023, 02:47:11 pm »

I do find it annoying that so many of these Lallemand products need higher pitch rates.

I've always been skeptical of the numbers coming out of the Lallemand calculator. I feel like dry yeast quality has increased significantly since when I started brewing, so it's interesting that they recommend a larger pitch than the old rule of thumb that 11g of dry yeast is good for a 5 gallon batch up to 1.060. If these numbers are truly valid, then they should increase their package size to like 15 or 18g to align with their recommendations.

Side note - I've never seen a pitch calculator that included fermentation temp as a factor for determining pitch rate, although it does make sense.

its really annoying and doesnt make any sense especially regarding the koln one. but even a lot of their yeasts seem to be geared towards hitting something like 3.5 to 4 gallons of 1.05 wort. i had a bad experience with their munich classic, noting a lot of off-flavours and general harshness in it, i had about 5 gallons of likely 1.056 or so wort, and found out recently by using their calculator i underpitched by a LOT.

its good they have that calculator now, but they need to consider making appropriate weight yeasts, or i simply have to alter my entire use of them by making smaller size batches in the 3.5 gallon and low 1.04s range which kind of defeats the purpose of using dry yeast anyway.

Offline Frankenbrew

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Re: Dry yeast marketing ploy or not?
« Reply #10 on: April 30, 2023, 03:23:07 pm »
I think the one myth that seems to persist is that you can't make a starter with dry yeast. Koln does have a higher pitch rate than some of Lallemand's other yeasts, something about drying the kolsch strain that yields fewer cells. So, I make a 1 liter vitality starter. I have done this many times with dry yeasts, and I don't see a problem with it. Even Lallemand in their best practices brochure gives instructions on how to make a starter with them.

My latest kolsch was 1.048. I made a vitality starter; a vigorous fermentation started in less than 24 hours, and now it tastes lovely, just like a kolsch should.. Some you can direct pitch, but if you can't, make a starter. Easy as that, really!
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Offline denny

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Re: Dry yeast marketing ploy or not?
« Reply #11 on: April 30, 2023, 03:28:40 pm »
I think the one myth that seems to persist is that you can't make a starter with dry yeast. Koln does have a higher pitch rate than some of Lallemand's other yeasts, something about drying the kolsch strain that yields fewer cells. So, I make a 1 liter vitality starter. I have done this many times with dry yeasts, and I don't see a problem with it. Even Lallemand in their best practices brochure gives instructions on how to make a starter with them.

My latest kolsch was 1.048. I made a vitality starter; a vigorous fermentation started in less than 24 hours, and now it tastes lovely, just like a kolsch should.. Some you can direct pitch, but if you can't, make a starter. Easy as that, really!

Of course you can make a starter with dry yeast. What's debatable is if it's a good idea. IO just read that best practices paper.  It talks about rehydrating, but I didn't see anything about starters.  Could you point out what I missed?
« Last Edit: April 30, 2023, 03:30:37 pm by denny »
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Offline lupulus

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Re: Dry yeast marketing ploy or not?
« Reply #12 on: April 30, 2023, 03:36:27 pm »


I think the one myth that seems to persist is that you can't make a starter with dry yeast. Koln does have a higher pitch rate than some of Lallemand's other yeasts, something about drying the kolsch strain that yields fewer cells. So, I make a 1 liter vitality starter. I have done this many times with dry yeasts, and I don't see a problem with it. Even Lallemand in their best practices brochure gives instructions on how to make a starter with them.

My latest kolsch was 1.048. I made a vitality starter; a vigorous fermentation started in less than 24 hours, and now it tastes lovely, just like a kolsch should.. Some you can direct pitch, but if you can't, make a starter. Easy as that, really!

Of course you can make a starter with dry yeast. What's debatable is if it's a good idea.

If you have one pack of Köln dry yeast and a 1.048 beer and about 6g of wort, it's a great idea !
Otherwise, you need to use 3 packs.
Or pray to the underpitching gods.

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Offline Frankenbrew

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Re: Dry yeast marketing ploy or not?
« Reply #13 on: April 30, 2023, 04:07:26 pm »
I think the one myth that seems to persist is that you can't make a starter with dry yeast. Koln does have a higher pitch rate than some of Lallemand's other yeasts, something about drying the kolsch strain that yields fewer cells. So, I make a 1 liter vitality starter. I have done this many times with dry yeasts, and I don't see a problem with it. Even Lallemand in their best practices brochure gives instructions on how to make a starter with them.

My latest kolsch was 1.048. I made a vitality starter; a vigorous fermentation started in less than 24 hours, and now it tastes lovely, just like a kolsch should.. Some you can direct pitch, but if you can't, make a starter. Easy as that, really!

They have published many Best Practices brochures. The one I am referring to is on Propagating Diamond Lager yeast.
Frank C.

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heart, you brew good ale.'

Offline Iliff Ave

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Re: Dry yeast marketing ploy or not?
« Reply #14 on: April 30, 2023, 05:13:20 pm »
I use one packet of koln in my 1.050 kolsch. Direct pitch. I’ve never had an issue. Finishes at 1.008.

I pretty much am a 1 packet of ale yeast and 2 packets of lager yeast kind of guy for beers of average OG. Simple.
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