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Author Topic: 34/70 and Diacetyl  (Read 2939 times)

Offline HopDen

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34/70 and Diacetyl
« on: August 23, 2023, 05:57:58 pm »
I use 34/70 for most of my pilsner/lager beers. I have faithfully implemented a diacetyl rest with roughly 5-10 gravity points left. I never perceived an off flavor namely butterscotch. The last 3 or more ferments with 34/70 I purposely let the beer ferment at 50* until terminal. I did not perceive any off flavor, none. Neither have anyone who has drank my beers, both novices and some local brewers.

I have drunk these beers fresh and I have let them lager for months and still no diacetyl is perceived.

I either have a high threshold for diacetyl  or 34/70 doesn't really produce diacetyl.

Thoughts?

Online Village Taphouse

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Re: 34/70 and Diacetyl
« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2023, 09:57:00 pm »
I don't know that I have ever used 34/70.  I do get it from 2124 if I'm not careful and I thought the strains were either related or exact .. one dry, one liquid.  I definitely think that people's tastebuds come into play with this.  My wife used to tell me that some of my beers tasted soapy and others tasted "banana-y".  But others drinking the same beer said they didn't taste those flavors at all.  I absolutely pick up diacetyl and I really dislike it.  When I brew with a strain that I know produces it, I do everything I can to avoid it.  S-04 is a champ at creating that flavor. 
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Offline dmtaylor

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Re: 34/70 and Diacetyl
« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2023, 06:04:45 am »
I have probably gotten diacetyl from 34/70 before. Maybe later I’ll check my notes. But I do get diacetyl from most lager yeasts at some point. Luck can run out. And my tasting ability is pretty good, seems easier for me to detect than for others.
Dave

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Offline BrewBama

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34/70 and Diacetyl
« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2023, 06:46:39 am »
Isn’t that weird how some can taste things others don’t?

I have received some judge comments and wondered if they got the beers mixed up or something. . I and my esteemed panel of family and friends didn’t taste any of the things the judge described. Could be handling or I simply am taste blind to some components.

Having said that, I like to raise the temp of lager yeast fermented beers for a day or two just out of habit.

Now, I have tasted ‘soapy’ beers but I attributed it to the way I was cleaning silicone hoses. I changed methods and the problem was solved. …maybe.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2023, 06:48:19 am by BrewBama »

Offline tommymorris

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Re: 34/70 and Diacetyl
« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2023, 06:51:30 am »
I am not sure if I have gotten diacetyl from 34/70 or not. I think the main culprit for my diacetyl on lagers is rushing beers. I try to give them at least 3 days in the fermenter after fermentation has stopped. When I have not done that, I have sometimes gotten diacetyl. The good news is I have been able to just take the keg out the fridge and warm it up for a few days to solve the problem.

Online Village Taphouse

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Re: 34/70 and Diacetyl
« Reply #5 on: August 24, 2023, 09:14:22 am »
Isn’t that weird how some can taste things others don’t?

I have received some judge comments and wondered if they got the beers mixed up or something. . I and my esteemed panel of family and friends didn’t taste any of the things the judge described. Could be handling or I simply am taste blind to some components.

Having said that, I like to raise the temp of lager yeast fermented beers for a day or two just out of habit.

Now, I have tasted ‘soapy’ beers but I attributed it to the way I was cleaning silicone hoses. I changed methods and the problem was solved. …maybe.
I do this too and I will also do it on an ale yeast that I know will produce diacetyl .. specifically English strains.  I just brewed my first beer with Novalager on Sunday (a Festbier .. I know .. I'm late) and I checked it this morning and fermentation appears to be done so I took it out of the fridge and placed it on my basement floor where it will stay for a bit.  34/70 .. just like any other strain should probably be allowed to sit at room temp to help with diacetyl.  Trying to rush the beer only hurts us, IMO.
Ken from Chicago. 
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Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: 34/70 and Diacetyl
« Reply #6 on: August 24, 2023, 10:33:35 am »
I often don't do a diacetyl rest on my lagers. Doing thst you have to leave the beer on the yeast longer. Raising the temp speeds up the production/reduction cycle. I'm in no hurry.
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Offline ynotbrusum

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Re: 34/70 and Diacetyl
« Reply #7 on: August 24, 2023, 11:57:19 am »
I have had comments about a lemon flavor with 34/70.  My neighbor's wife picks up diacetyl (she just says butter) at very low thresholds.  When present, I detect diacetyl first in mouthfeel and then work backwards to scrutinize flavor.  Any more a healthy pitch of yeast eliminates any noticeable (to me, anyway, and my neighbor's wife) diacetyl.  Then there are those styles where a little diacetyl is ok...and in those I search for it to confirm my palate (sometimes it just isn't present).
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Offline denny

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Re: 34/70 and Diacetyl
« Reply #8 on: August 24, 2023, 01:22:45 pm »
I don't recall getting diacetyl for 34/70.  Like Jeff, I almost never do a d rest. Just give it time to do its work.
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Offline purduekenn

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Re: 34/70 and Diacetyl
« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2023, 03:37:02 pm »
I can't taste Diacetyl in beer but can detect it when I get a slick sensation in my mouth and teeth.

Offline dmtaylor

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Re: 34/70 and Diacetyl
« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2023, 06:30:43 pm »
I detected a very slight diacetyl in a helles when it was very young.  Another time I commented there was no diacetyl at all.  So it seems W-34/70 is one of the cleanest strains when it comes to diacetyl.  It does however throw a good bit of sulfur when young.  Not to worry, it ages out fairly quickly.
Dave

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Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: 34/70 and Diacetyl
« Reply #11 on: August 24, 2023, 09:07:53 pm »
We all have different sensitivity to flavors. Some are selective like color blindness. Some people are blind to diacetyl due to genetics, just as some perceive Cilantro as soap.

I need reading glasses, but my far vision is 20/15 or better after cataract surgery. I'm going to pick up my first hearing aids on Monday to correct moderate loss. There are no fixes for holes in our flavor perceptions as far as I know.
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Offline goose

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Re: 34/70 and Diacetyl
« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2023, 08:05:39 am »
I can't taste Diacetyl in beer but can detect it when I get a slick sensation in my mouth and teeth.

My palate is pretty blind to diacetyl as well.  I have also trained myself to look for slickness in the beer and then re-evaluate.  One of my brewing buddies can detect diacetyl at extremely low levels that I cannot perceive and we discuss this a lot when we are tasting or judging beers.

To add to this, there was an excellent presentation at this year's HBC about diacetyl in beer.  The presenter passed around two of the same beers, one that was clean and one that had a small amount of diacetyl in it.  It was amazing that I was able to detect the buttery note in the one with diacetyl especially at the low level he said was in the beer.  Maybe my palate has changed a bit?????
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Offline ynotbrusum

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Re: 34/70 and Diacetyl
« Reply #13 on: August 25, 2023, 09:20:57 am »
I can't taste Diacetyl in beer but can detect it when I get a slick sensation in my mouth and teeth.

My palate is pretty blind to diacetyl as well.  I have also trained myself to look for slickness in the beer and then re-evaluate.  One of my brewing buddies can detect diacetyl at extremely low levels that I cannot perceive and we discuss this a lot when we are tasting or judging beers.

To add to this, there was an excellent presentation at this year's HBC about diacetyl in beer.  The presenter passed around two of the same beers, one that was clean and one that had a small amount of diacetyl in it.  It was amazing that I was able to detect the buttery note in the one with diacetyl especially at the low level he said was in the beer.  Maybe my palate has changed a bit?????
  Maybe some confirmation bias?  I know that the power of persuasion is great...I tend to lean toward a younger judge's palate over my own at times, because my palate is getting way too old to rely upon.
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Offline goose

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Re: 34/70 and Diacetyl
« Reply #14 on: August 25, 2023, 11:31:34 am »
I can't taste Diacetyl in beer but can detect it when I get a slick sensation in my mouth and teeth.

My palate is pretty blind to diacetyl as well.  I have also trained myself to look for slickness in the beer and then re-evaluate.  One of my brewing buddies can detect diacetyl at extremely low levels that I cannot perceive and we discuss this a lot when we are tasting or judging beers.

To add to this, there was an excellent presentation at this year's HBC about diacetyl in beer.  The presenter passed around two of the same beers, one that was clean and one that had a small amount of diacetyl in it.  It was amazing that I was able to detect the buttery note in the one with diacetyl especially at the low level he said was in the beer.  Maybe my palate has changed a bit?????
  Maybe some confirmation bias?  I know that the power of persuasion is great...I tend to lean toward a younger judge's palate over my own at times, because my palate is getting way too old to rely upon.

In some cases, you're probably right.  But I remember judging with a younger judge at a competition where the diacetyl screamed at him in a beer and I could not perceive it at all.  I think training my palate to better perceive this has helped. If I get slickness on my teeth, it is probably there and I go looking deeper for it.  Doesn't always work but it has helped.
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