[redrocker652002]

I have been thinking about doing this for a couple of reasons. I brew mostly Ales, so not sure this is really going to do much but it looks like it might help with the O2 battle. I have a few 5 gallon cornies that I can use and they seem to hold pressure. So, my thought is, hooking up two to both pressure ferment and try and do a sealed transfer. Here is my thought. After brewing, I would transfer my wort into keg 1, pitch my yeast and seal it up. Run a jumper line from gas post of keg 1 to the liquid line of keg 2 so that any blow off would be in keg 2 instead of all over my floor. I would probably hook up a floating dip tube on it as well to shorted the line into keg 2 (I hope that makes sense). Then, run a jumper line from gas post of keg 1 to the gas post of keg 2 to catch and purge the keg of any O2 and maybe put my dry hops in keg 2 so that they are ready to go. Add a spunding valve to keg 2 for any excess pressure and off we go. On dry hop day, I would simple add gas to keg one and transfer the beer to keg 2 for dry hopping. On keg day, I would then move the beer from keg 2 to my serving keg via closed transfer. The reason I am doing it this way it to keep my batches at 5 gallons and try and keep the blow out contained in keg 2. Does this make sense? The reason I don't go from keg 1 to serving keg is that my converted mini fridge is not able to hold the taller kegs, so I had to buy a Torpedo keg that is a few inches shorter to fit. So, that is my only serving keg at this time. Eventually, my hope is to get a kegerator that will fit the taller kegs and just do a two keg fermentation where the final beer ends up in keg 2. I have plenty of hose and plenty of QD's to do this I believe, but wondering if my process is solid or not. If anything, I am going to try and do a pressure ferment one of these days, but in my research, they say that ale's really don't benefit from it. Anyway, sorry to ramble, but any input would be great as I have at least 2 kegs that are holding O2 pressure and have for at least 2 or 3 months.

As usual any input, good or bad, is welcomed. Thanks for reading.

And in the effort of complete transparency, I am also going to post this in another forum to try and get as much info as I can.

[denny]

How will it help with O2? Your fermenter is basically sealed during fermentation anyway, right? Why do you want to suppress esters in an ale?

[redrocker652002]

How will it help with O2? Your fermenter is basically sealed during fermentation anyway, right? Why do you want to suppress esters in an ale?

I was kinda wondering about that actually.  Everything I have read says Ale's should not be pressure fermented, but wanted to make sure I was reading it right.  So, in your opinion, pressure fermenting isn't really a good idea for Ale's?

[denny]

How will it help with O2? Your fermenter is basically sealed during fermentation anyway, right? Why do you want to suppress esters in an ale?

I was kinda wondering about that actually.  Everything I have read says Ale's should not be pressure fermented, but wanted to make sure I was reading it right.  So, in your opinion, pressure fermenting isn't really a good idea for Ale's?

Yeah, I don't think so. And after talking to Chris White (White Labs) about matching yeast strain,pressure, and temp I decided that it was something I wasn't interested in. I feel like many do it as a bandwagon thing without understanding what they're doing.

[erockrph]

There are plenty of ways to approach this. I ferment in 5 gallon kegs and it works great for me and my batch sizes (about 3 to 3.5 gallons in the fermenter to net me a full 2.5 gallon keg in the end). I use adjustable pressure-relief valves that I attach to the gas post of the keg. For ales, I set it to 2 PSI, which is just enough to get it to seal without putting much backpressure on the fermenter. For lagers, I generally pressure-ferment at 15 PSI. When fermentation has slowed, I remove the PRV and let the beer naturally carbonate (at least partially) as fermentation finishes up. You can fully spund and/or collect the CO2 coming out of fermentation if you like, although I've never done that myself.

To transfer to your serving keg, you just need a jumper from liquid post to liquid post. Fill your serving keg with Star San, purge whatever headspace remains, then push all the Star San out with CO2. Then connect everything: CO2 > Fermentation Keg Gas post; Fermentation Keg Liquid post > Serving Keg Liquid post, and your PRV valve to the Gas post of your receiving keg. Set the PRV to be about 2 PSI less than the CO2 pressure on the fermentation keg. This lets the beer flow slowly, and keeps enough pressure in the receiving keg so the beer doesn't foam up.

You definitely want to either use a floating dip tube in your fermentation keg, or trim the liquid dip tube by a few inches. This will leave the trub/yeast cake/dry hops in the fermenter instead of clogging the dip tube.

Based on a lot of anecdotal information out there (and my own personal experience seems to back this up), the benefits of pressurized fermentation at the homebrew scale are minimal. The advantages of fermenting in kegs are more the ability to mitigate oxygen exposure, the ability to spund, and the ability to make pressurized transfers to your serving vessel. It's way cheaper than other stainless fermenters, and does some of the same things. If this works for you, give it a try. Outside of the PRV and a liquid-liquid jumper, there's not much of an investment needed.

[fredthecat]

my thinking about it was always - why? especially considering the investment costs.

i tried one homebrewed pressure fermented "lager" and it was really, really bad and totally unlagerlike. tons of gluey, weird flavours but it was "completed" in only 7 days!!

[HopDen]

my thinking about it was always - why? especially considering the investment costs.

i tried one homebrewed pressure fermented "lager" and it was really, really bad and totally unlagerlike. tons of gluey, weird flavours but it was "completed" in only 7 days!!

Possibly it was just a bad beer regardless? Pressure fermenting has it pros and cons as with all process's. Not all yeasts will perform well under pressure especially ale yeast and from doing research, a few lager yeasts as well. Its not really a great cost to pressure ferment IMHO.

[Bob357]

Just to bring another perspective to this thread.

I began pressure fermentating about 3 years ago because I could no longer lift a full keg into my Keezer. I've found leaving the spunding valve open until high Krausen, and a minimum of 24 hours after pitching, then setting to 10 psi doesn't make a perceptible difference in esters (YMMV) and allows me to dry hop with minimal O2 ingress. By running a jumper into the clean and sanitized target keg and attaching the spunding valve to it, I'm also able to purge the keg, do a closed transfer and end up with a nearly fully carbonated beer. I'm using a Fermzilla 30 liter All Rounder, at a cost of less than $100 including the pressure kit and another $15 for a dry hopping valve. 

Would I have gone this route without physical limitations? Probably not but feel it's a good alternative to switching to brewing small batches.

[Kevin]

I feel like many do it as a bandwagon thing without understanding what they're doing.

I have had this thought a lot lately.

[HighVoltageMan!]

How will it help with O2? Your fermenter is basically sealed during fermentation anyway, right? Why do you want to suppress esters in an ale?

I was kinda wondering about that actually.  Everything I have read says Ale's should not be pressure fermented, but wanted to make sure I was reading it right.  So, in your opinion, pressure fermenting isn't really a good idea for Ale's?

Yeah, I don't think so. And after talking to Chris White (White Labs) about matching yeast strain,pressure, and temp I decided that it was something I wasn't interested in. I feel like many do it as a bandwagon thing without understanding what they're doing.

I have been pressure fermenting for @ 3-4 years. I started pressure fermenting because I was picking up some esters on my lagers. It was inconsistent, sometimes I would get them and other times I wouldn't. I was frustrated. I was doing everything right to reduce esters, but it was hit and miss.

Then I was at a local brewery and tasted their Helles. It was perfectly clean. I asked the guy behind the bar if he happen to know what yeast he used. It turns out he helped brew the beer. They under-pitch 2124 at 50F. I then realized why the beer was so clean, they had 30 barrel fermenters that were 15-20 feet high. Pressure was effecting the ester profile, more specifically dissolved co2.

So I ferment my lagers at 7.5psi @ 50 F. I have read so many people's comments that it wrecks the beer, the yeast are harmed by it, etc., all of it pure BS. It works beautifully, consistent clean beers, time after time. I have since won 4 silvers at the NHC finals for lagers using this method.

That said, I concur completely with Denny's comments. It only works with certain yeasts, 2124 and 34/70 work great. I would never use pressure fermentation on an ale. I found that most English strains under attenuate with pressure. It's not necessary and I think it takes away from the beer. Ester production can be promoted or reduced depending on the amount of co2 in solution during fermentation, think open fermentation in stone boats (Samuel Smith).

It has it's place, but I think people are doing it without a purpose in mind. As for the OP, don't get to wrapped up in the complexity. Try to keep it simple. Fermenting in a keg is a great option and it allows for closed transfer. The problem with corny kegs is that you can't be sure it's sealed without a touch of pressure, so if you do keep pressure for an ale, keep it to 1-2 psi. Good luck and happy brewing.

[John M]

I know MoreBeer pushes pressure fermenting. They released a video awhile back titled something like "5 ways to improve your beer". Pressure fermenting was on the list. They went on to explain how it replicates what pro-breweries do etc. They are obviously motivated to sell you more gear.

I was all geared up to try it, til I read more about it. I'm making perfectly good beer without it, so I'm gonna keep doing what I'm doing.

[hopfenundmalz]

Some of my favorite Bavarian breweries open ferment their lagers in relatively shallow fermenters.

[redrocker652002]

Thanks for all the info.  I think what I might try is fermenting in a keg with a line into a jar of starsan for blowoff.  When I am ready to either keg or dry hop, I will clean up another keg, run a jumper line from liquid post to liquid post and transfer from one to the other.  If it is a dry hop keg, after the required days, will do the same thing to my serving keg as well.  Just something to try for the heck of it I guess.  Keep the info coming though, I am learning a lot. 

[hopfenundmalz]

Thanks for all the info.  I think what I might try is fermenting in a keg with a line into a jar of starsan for blowoff.  When I am ready to either keg or dry hop, I will clean up another keg, run a jumper line from liquid post to liquid post and transfer from one to the other.  If it is a dry hop keg, after the required days, will do the same thing to my serving keg as well.  Just something to try for the heck of it I guess.  Keep the info coming though, I am learning a lot.

I ferment lagers in kegs just like that. Then with 1 Plato to go I put a spunding valve on.

[nJAYneer1999]

I also am new to pressure fermenting.  Not sure if I'm jumping on a bandwagon or just want to explore any nuances it might bring to both lagers and ales.  But, I'd agree with what has been said about Ales vs Lagers.  My first pressure ferment was a split batch Irish Red Ale with repitched yeast.  They had identical fermentation profiles and pitch rates.  One had 15psi the other 0.  This was to accomplish a single variable experiment.  I found that the pressure-fermented version had a slightly smoother hop character and a rounder overall flavor.  Esters didn't seem impacted between the two.  i fermented on the cool side of the yeast.  Overall, the differences were minimal.  Currently, I have a lager under 15psi pressure cold crashing.  I used Imperial L17 at 60F.  Fermentation was two points from target FG in three days at which point I increased temp to 65F for diacetyl rest...tasted it 5 days.  Aroma was of white wine, flavor a bit tart and pH dropped from 5.1 (after knockout) to 4.0.  A little low for my palet.  At this point, I'd say the pressure ferment was a failure.  Giving this time to age and hope the final result will be clean...I don't know, we will see.  Oh, I also use kegs with shortened dip tubes.  I have two conicals (non pressure) and I prefer the kegs hands down!