[Slowbrew]

I could support this if it came with other changes to the laws.

2.  Rezone to allow more bars near houses.  The closest brewery to my house is about nine miles away.  The nearest pub is over four miles.  The nearest place to buy packaged beer is the grocery store over a mile away.  If there was a bar in my neighborhood we would hang out there, now we just rotate houses between about five families.  I miss living in the city

In the PA coal region, neighborhood bars that literally double as people's homes are a common thing.  However, a friend of mine was busted for trying to walk home, which was three doors away from a bar.  An undercover liquor control guy followed him outside.

What was the charge?  Walking while intoxicated?  Public staggering/shuffling?  Excessive eye watering?

Paul

[guido]

I could support this if it came with other changes to the laws.

2.  Rezone to allow more bars near houses.  The closest brewery to my house is about nine miles away.  The nearest pub is over four miles.  The nearest place to buy packaged beer is the grocery store over a mile away.  If there was a bar in my neighborhood we would hang out there, now we just rotate houses between about five families.  I miss living in the city

In the PA coal region, neighborhood bars that literally double as people's homes are a common thing.  However, a friend of mine was busted for trying to walk home, which was three doors away from a bar.  An undercover liquor control guy followed him outside.

What was the charge?  Walking while intoxicated?  Public staggering/shuffling?  Excessive eye watering?

Paul

Public drunkenness.  If they want ya, they're gonna get you.  The PA Liquor Control Board (they control distribution and enforcement, that's another discussion) is famous (infamous?) for overstepping its boundaries.

[Slowbrew]

I could support this if it came with other changes to the laws.

2.  Rezone to allow more bars near houses.  The closest brewery to my house is about nine miles away.  The nearest pub is over four miles.  The nearest place to buy packaged beer is the grocery store over a mile away.  If there was a bar in my neighborhood we would hang out there, now we just rotate houses between about five families.  I miss living in the city

In the PA coal region, neighborhood bars that literally double as people's homes are a common thing.  However, a friend of mine was busted for trying to walk home, which was three doors away from a bar.  An undercover liquor control guy followed him outside.

What was the charge?  Walking while intoxicated?  Public staggering/shuffling?  Excessive eye watering?

Paul

Public drunkenness.  If they want ya, they're gonna get you.  The PA Liquor Control Board (they control distribution and enforcement, that's another discussion) is famous (infamous?) for overstepping its boundaries.

Another thing to be happy I live in Iowa for.  Here you can't be arrested because they watched you have some drinks.  You actually have to do something that gives them probable cause.  Walking three houses down to go home, assuming you don't start screaming, throwing things or wondering out into the street may get you watched by an officer who happens to be around but they'll leave you alone if you make it home.  Most officers will help you get to your door if you're weaving.  It seems hard to believe that there wasn't more to the story but I don't live there so I'll take your word for it.

Paul

[The Professor]

In the PA coal region, neighborhood bars that literally double as people's homes are a common thing.  However, a friend of mine was busted for trying to walk home, which was three doors away from a bar.  An undercover liquor control guy followed him outside.

Can's say I'm totally surprised.  PA is kind of known for it's bizarre and backwards liquor laws as well the overzealous folks on the liquor control board who 'enforce' the law.

[gsandel]

PA is kind of known for it's bizarre and backwards liquor laws as well the overzealous folks on the liquor control board who 'enforce' the law.

Words to remember when we are all in Philly next month.

I do know of more than one college towns setting up DUI checkpoints on bike paths....the 0.05% BAC limit can more easily be abused....

[majorvices]

Have to agree with some of what Dixon is saying. The guy who has 2 or 3 beers isn't the guy out there killing people when he gets behind the wheel. Statistically the DUI laws we have in place now have worked. I don't think lowering the limit any further will lower the death rate any.

I don't worry much about drunk drivers much. Even though I know it is I problem it never kept me off the road.   But I have pretty much stopped riding my motorcycle because of cell phone talkers and texters. You want to implement some legislation go after these people.

[morticaixavier]

Have to agree with some of what Dixon is saying. The guy who has 2 or 3 beers isn't the guy out there killing people when he gets behind the wheel. Statistically the DUI laws we have in place now have worked. I don't think lowering the limit any further will lower the death rate any.

I don't worry much about drunk drivers much. Even though I know it is I problem it never kept me off the road.   But I have pretty much stopped riding my motorcycle because of cell phone talkers and texters. You want to implement some legislation go after these people.

From the California ADP statisitics for 2010

"Drivers with a high BAC (.15% or
above) accounted for more than half of
all alcohol-related traffic fatalities."

http://adp.ca.gov/FactSheets/DrivingUnderTheInfluenceStatistics.pdf

so, while it's true that the guys getting truly trashed are causing most of the deaths they are by no means causing all or even an overwhelming majority of them.

[majorvices]

So, what's to say the other half accidents were caused by inebriation? Accidents happen and people get killed all the time. I don't think it is safe to assume that someone with a .08 limit gets in an accident and kills someone that the alcohol was necessarily to blame.

You have to be really careful with tests like this. They are worded to make a case and a point but that point may not be the actual cause of the issue.

[duxx]

PA is kind of known for it's bizarre and backwards liquor laws as well the overzealous folks on the liquor control board who 'enforce' the law.

Words to remember when we are all in Philly next month.

Exactly what I was thinking!!!

[morticaixavier]

So, what's to say the other half accidents were caused by inebriation? Accidents happen and people get killed all the time. I don't think it is safe to assume that someone with a .08 limit gets in an accident and kills someone that the alcohol was necessarily to blame.

You have to be really careful with tests like this. They are worded to make a case and a point but that point may not be the actual cause of the issue.

Okay, sure, it's possible that none of the other 40 whatever percent of 'alcohol related' traffic deaths were totally unrelated to the alcohol. For that matter there is no reason to think that the ones with >.15 BAC were in any way affected by the alcohol. However there is VERY strong evidence that being inebriated interferes with ones ability to operate machinery safely. and my point stands I think that people do ge tkilled because someone with a .05 or .06 or some stupid kid with a .03 for that matter did something they might well have not done if they were fully in control of there faculties.

[majorvices]

Agreed that there is no evidence either way. if you blood alc. limit is over the legal limit even if you are sitting at a stop sign and get rear ended by someone on their cell phone you get blamed for the accident.

Obviously when people do get drunk they are not as safe behind the wheel, but I don't think it is wise to assume that someone at .06 is necessarily "inebriated". And I'd need to see a more detailed analysis than what has been posited before I will change my stance.

I'm just not going to jump up and down with joy and indignation at the first mention of newly proposed law that restricts my freedoms in a way that seems over the top. I rarely go out and drink but at the rate it's going I won't even be able to test taste a beer at my own brewery and get behind the wheel.

[MDixon]

I did a little quick research. When the law dropped from 0.10 to 0.08 a study (insert eye roll emoticon) found the drop in drivers with 0.10 or greater in fatal crashes to decrease by 6%. That was right after the laws changed in some states.

I found a neat 1999 analysis from CT (more eye roll emoticons).
49% of fatalities in motor vehicles has zero alcohol in their system. So sober drivers.
3% were in the 0.01 to 0.04 range
5% in the 0.05 to 0.10 range

So 57% of all traffic fatalities involved legal amounts of alcohol to zero alcohol

If you took out the sober drivers, 54% of those with any alcohol had a BAC more than 0.16
http://www.cga.ct.gov/ps99/rpt/olr/htm/99-r-0154.htm

Fast forward to 2010 and the NTSB found 75% of fatal crashes involving drunk drivers had BAC more than twice the legal limit.
http://www.drugfree.org/join-together/alcohol/most-drunk-drivers-causing-fatal-crashes-have-almost-twice-legal-blood-alcohol-limit-2

You simply are not going to stop those drivers with a change to the BAC.

Nebraska has an interesting fact sheet. 18% of alcohol impaired drivers are under 21. So lemme get this straight, we have a law which states zero alcohol until 21 (in most states) and a certain BAC. Those laws are being broken so changing a limit and ultimately changing a law is going to stop the law from being broken? That's the kind of thinking that will get you elected!
http://www.transportation.nebraska.gov/safetysummit/2012/presentations/3-Fatal-Crashes-Alcohol.pdf

[HoosierBrew]

I don't condone drunken driving whatsoever, but I would take my chances any day next to a driver @ .08 who is paying attention, versus one of the 18 year old girls who nearly take me out weekly while texting evidently LONG sentences without even bothering to look up while in mid-sentence.  Texting while driving is an epidemic level problem that seems to get enforced rarely.  And the penalties are so much lighter as compared to DWI, it's a joke. If anything, I find it more dangerous. Where is the real deterrent?

[MDixon]

Penalties in the US do little IMO to deter crime. You see the sign driving down the road which says, "Penalties Increased Ahead" or "Fines Doubled In Work Zones". Sometimes it even tells you how much. Do you slow down because of a penalty or because you don't want to kill someone? Do you slow down at all? (Rhetorical question, but as I drive 40K miles per year I do feel qualified to answer few slow down at all.)

[majorvices]

I do think that the DUI limit of .08% is legally fair and I do think it cuts down on people drinking and driving, so in that case it is a penalty that works. But I think going to .05% is just going to punish people who have had a beer or two with dinner and then drove their kid to his soccer game and got into a routine fender bender.

Proud to say I have never gotten a DUI, fwiw.