[klickitat jim]

I'm kicking around trying my hand at a wildish beer. For the sake of this thread I'm not concerned with style guides or any competition results or trying to clone anything. I'm just checking my understanding of how this rolls.

Generally what I am considering doing is a bigger beer, about 1.080, on my house ale yeast. Fairly clean profile. Then secondary on cherries. Then rack it off to one of my polycarbonate buckets with an airlock, and pitch Roeselare. Then keep that in a spare room in the house for however long it takes. Is it true that its done when the pelicle falls? Like anywhere from a few months to a year?

[jeffy]

I'm kicking around trying my hand at a wildish beer. For the sake of this thread I'm not concerned with style guides or any competition results or trying to clone anything. I'm just checking my understanding of how this rolls.

Generally what I am considering doing is a bigger beer, about 1.080, on my house ale yeast. Fairly clean profile. Then secondary on cherries. Then rack it off to one of my polycarbonate buckets with an airlock, and pitch Roeselare. Then keep that in a spare room in the house for however long it takes. Is it true that its done when the pelicle falls? Like anywhere from a few months to a year?

There have been several seminars this week about this.  One thing I remember is to mash at a high temp to give the bugs more food.  160F or so.  They also mentioned doing a ferulic acid rest (113F) and using some wheat in the grain bill.

[klickitat jim]

Ya I listened to an old Brewing with Style (Flanders red). It sounds like having residual is not a bad idea. I think 1.080 ought to leave some behind, but I'll mash high. JZ mentioned tossing in a tbsp of flour if you wanted, but I think I'll pass.

Mainly im trying to verify that my pitching and such is right.

[klickitat jim]

Here's my rough draft

Auld MacDonald's Farmhouse
6lbs German Pils
6lbs Vienna
2lbs Munich 20L
1/2 lb C80
1/2 lb Spec B
160º
90 min boil
28g EKG at 60
WY1728 ar 65º
Secondary on 10lbs dark cherries
At terminal gravity rack to polycarbonate bucket and pitch Roeselare
Store in house ~12 months
Keg and cross fingers

[brewinhard]

Depending on how sour you want this beer to become, then your original gravity should be monitored.  Lactobacillus is a weak bacteria and does not prefer high alcohol levels which inhibit its growth.  1.080 is a big beer and when it dries out from long term aging results in a very high ABV% (which is not always bad... ).
I would recommend a smaller OG (say around 1.065-1.070) which will still give you a stronger beer depending on how much it attenuates.

If you plan on pitching an ale strain first, I would make your wort fairly heavy in dextrinous malts and mash higher than normal depending on your choice of ale strain.  Let that ferment out for 3-4 wks or so, then rack to a secondary carboy  with your wild ones (purged with CO2 if possible).  Slap on a stopper and airlock and you are good to let it age between 60-70F for 6-8 mos.  Once the bugs have taken over the wort, then you will want to rack the beer again, on top of your fruit and age that for an additional 2-6 mos depending on taste and type of fruit. 

That is what has always gotten me in the right direction.  While you are waiting for this one to age, get started on another take of your style of American sour to keep the pipeline happy. 

[klickitat jim]

So you don't do the fruit until later? It must be ok to leave all that pulp on there for a long time?

[morticaixavier]

So you don't do the fruit until later? It must be ok to leave all that pulp on there for a long time?

it's just food for the bugs. It can stay in there till it's gone.

[klickitat jim]

Awesomeness!

So, I understand the too high alc issue. I looked again at my numbers. I was multitasking at the time (ie working) and had my boil volume wrong. After setting it at 5.5 gallons, and changing my brew house efficiency to 68% (what I usualy get with big beers) I'm looking at 1.065. Should come out about 7% or there abouts.

If im waiting that long for the fruit addition I might just go with Oregon puree

Am I on the right track now.

[reverseapachemaster]

I definitely agree that you want to add the fruit later on after it has soured.

I have done the clean primary and rack to secondary sour and I haven't liked it as much as dumping everything in the fermentor all at once. Primary yeast plus the sour blend all go in together. That may not be a good idea if you are using a fermentor that you want to keep clean and you have concerns about cross-contamination but I have not had problems myself.

[klickitat jim]

It sounds to me like there's a lot of ways to go about it. Would be nice to know why people do things differently

If I understand this correctly,
I can just add my wort, cherries, and a Roeselare pitch and leave it alone for a year...
Ferment the wort on nuetral yeast, secondary on fruit, then add bugs...
Add bugs with fruit...
Add bugs, Then fruit later...

Would there be vast differences, if so what?

At this point im considering a compromise,  fermentation on my 1728, then rack to a secondary and add cherries and bugs and let it sit a year.

[brewinhard]

You will get more unique aromas and flavors by allowing the brett and bacteria to get a good foothold in the beer before adding the fruit to the beer.  Once the fruit has been added, the additional sugars will then be consumed mainly by the brett and bacteria instead of remaining saccharomyces which will be somewhat boring compared to your wild friends. 

[klickitat jim]

That makes sense. And what if I only used Roeselare from the start?

[reverseapachemaster]

Roeselare contains at least one sacc strain so you'll still get a good primary fermentation out of it. There's also lactobacillus that will compete with your sacc for simple sugars so you can get some added sourness up front. By getting everything in your beer at the beginning you give everything the opportunity to fight for early resources and multiply from the start. It more closely resembles what would happen naturally (as much as a lab-created blend can). Ultimately it's going to get you to the same destination.

IMO dumping everything in at the start is the best way to take advantage of everything in the blend. It's also most convenient because I don't have to worry about racking or having multiple vessels available for beer. One vessel, one pitch and let it go. I've never had a problem that way.

[morticaixavier]

I would go for using the roselare as primary pitch BUT I would move to secondary before adding cherries. I have not used that blend before but a lot of folks who have say it is a champ on the second and subsequent pitches so if you want to get a sour pipeline built up you will want to brew with that second pitch again. easier to do if it's not all full of cherry gunk.

the 1 year timeline is pretty good although I won a BOS with my sour with cherries at ~5 or 6 months on the cherries.

[Kinetic]

I've had good luck with this:

Pitch Roeselare in the primary.  No starter.  Ferment for 30-60days.  Add fruit to the primary.  Ferment fruit for 6-9 months.  Don't open the fermenter at all.  No secondary.  Cold crash.  Bottle.   

It will be plenty sour.  If you want a bigger Brett note (leather/horsey), pitch some extra Brett with the Roeselare.