[Phil_M]

First off, thanks for putting up with all my posts in this section. Still pretty new to trying my own recipes, and it's really helpful to have more experienced folks look over them for glaring issues.

I'll be introducing a friend to homebrewing this weekend, we'll be splitting whichever recipe he selects. The two options will be a weizen and a dunkelweizen:

Weizen:

45% Weyermann wheat malt
20% Weyermann dark wheat malt
25% Weyermann pilsner malt
10% Weyermann munich I malt

Target 1.048 OG, 15 IBU.


Dunkelweizen:

40% Weyermann dark wheat malt
20% Weyermann wheat malt
7.5% Weyermann CaraAroma
10% Weyermann munich II malt
7.5% Weyermann caramunich type 3
15% Weyermann pilsner malt

Target 1.055 OG, 15 IBU.

How do these look? I'm really not what malts to use in the dunkelweizen, but the selected malts sound like they fit the bill.

[Wort-H.O.G.]

here's a dunkelweizen recipe I like for reference:

7 lbs          Wheat Malt, Dark (Weyermann) (7.0 SRM)   Grain   1   66.7 %
3 lbs           Vienna Malt (Weyermann) (3.8 SRM)     Grain   2   28.6 %
4.0 oz   Chocolate Wheat Malt (400.0 SRM)     Grain   3   2.4 %
4.0 oz   Melanoidin (Weyermann) (38.0 SRM)    Grain   4   2.4 %
0.35 oz   Hallertau Magnum [14.00 %] - Boil 60.0 minHop   5   16.0 IBUs
1.0 pkg   Hefeweizen Ale (White Labs #WLP300) [35.49 ml]   Yeast   6   -

[troybinso]

I much prefer a regular hefeweizen to a dunkelweizen, so I'll only comment on that one.

65% wheat might be troublesome in the mash.

Not sure what the reason is for the dark wheat malt in the hefeweizen. I guess it is analogous to the munich in the barley side of the equation? Maybe drop it down to 10% so you will be at 55% wheat and 20% munich-y malts?

[dbarber]

I've never made a dunkelweizen, but my standard weizen recipe is 60% malted wheat, 40% pilsner. 

[Phil_M]

I much prefer a regular hefeweizen to a dunkelweizen, so I'll only comment on that one.

65% wheat might be troublesome in the mash.

Not sure what the reason is for the dark wheat malt in the hefeweizen. I guess it is analogous to the munich in the barley side of the equation? Maybe drop it down to 10% so you will be at 55% wheat and 20% munich-y malts?

I BIAB, so a stuck sparge isn't a concern.

I haven't brewed either of these styles before. Particularly with the weizen, I notice a few commercial examples seem pretty one dimensional on the malt side, even fresh. For the weizen, my goal was do do "about" 60% wheat malt, and I did both regular and dark malt to try and add a little complexity.

here's a dunkelweizen recipe I like for reference:

7 lbs          Wheat Malt, Dark (Weyermann) (7.0 SRM)   Grain   1   66.7 %
3 lbs           Vienna Malt (Weyermann) (3.8 SRM)     Grain   2   28.6 %
4.0 oz   Chocolate Wheat Malt (400.0 SRM)     Grain   3   2.4 %
4.0 oz   Melanoidin (Weyermann) (38.0 SRM)    Grain   4   2.4 %
0.35 oz   Hallertau Magnum [14.00 %] - Boil 60.0 minHop   5   16.0 IBUs
1.0 pkg   Hefeweizen Ale (White Labs #WLP300) [35.49 ml]   Yeast   6   -

So wheat and veinna malt (and I'd assume munich as well) provide all the enzymes needed? I'll just cut the pils malt from the dunlkelweizen entirely then, only reason I had it in there was in case the other malts didn't provide enough enzymes. Probably reduce the regular wheat malt a bit, and up the munich a tad.

[Wort-H.O.G.]

yeah no issues converting. no stuck sparge either.  you can always add in pound of pils or other if you're concerned.

[Phil_M]

Ok, so if we go with the dunkelweizen I'm now thinking

45% Weyermann dark wheat malt
20% Weyermann wheat malt
7.5% Weyermann CaraAroma
20% Weyermann munich II malt
7.5% Weyermann caramunich type 3

[reverseapachemaster]

A basic hefe is just two row plus wheat. I know some do add munich malt to theirs although this might be unnecessary with the right processes. If you want to up the malt character without adding caramel notes or sweetness then maybe sub out some of the pils for pale malt. When I look at those two recipes I think they are two different dunkelweizen recipes with the second recipe going much harder on caramel and sweetness. The first recipe would be fine for a dunkelweizen as it is. The second recipe is probably too sweet for any kind of weizen style beyond weizenbock.

[Iliff Ave]

15% crystal malt seems like way too much and maybe out of place entirely. I not familiar with brewing these styles but I have been brewing a lot of German styles lately. Most seem to have little or no crystal malt and it is not needed in a wheat beer of any kind (in my opinion). I think you need to rely on a bit of roasted malt (like Ken's chocolate wheat) instead of crystal malts and dark munich to adjust your color.

Maybe I am off track but those are my impressions.

EDIT:

Looks like my impressions were not completely accurate...haha

Characteristic Ingredients:
By German brewing tradition, at least 50% of the grist must be malted wheat, although some versions use up to 70%; the remainder is usually Munich, Vienna, or dark or caramel wheat malts, or Pilsner malt with
color malt. A decoction mash is traditional, but infrequently used today. Weizen ale yeasts produce the typical spicy and fruity character, although extreme fermentation temperatures can affect the balance and produce off-flavors

[Phil_M]

Ah, and that's where I was least sure what malts to use. Some folks describe them as roasty beers, BJCP says "A roasted malt character is inappropriate." Personally I've never thought of them as roasty, and crystal seemed the only way to the the color otherwise.

Update option 2 to:

45% Weyermann dark wheat malt
20% Weyermann wheat malt
32.5% Weyermann munich II malt
2.5% chocolate wheat malt

I will say, of the two recipes I'd most like to try the first one. Really curious how it would turn out, even if it's not "to style" perfectly. (though it's within the numbers for a weizen.)

I use BJCP and other style references as guidelines, not rules. I just want to brew a good beer, and if it's not perfectly to style, then so what? I'm not competing, nor do I desire to. I'd rather have folks enjoy my beers than win a BJCP ruled event.

[Wort-H.O.G.]

Ah, and that's where I was least sure what malts to use. Some folks describe them as roasty beers, BJCP says "A roasted malt character is inappropriate." Personally I've never thought of them as roasty, and crystal seemed the only way to the the color otherwise.

Update option 2 to:

45% Weyermann dark wheat malt
20% Weyermann wheat malt
32.5% Weyermann munich II malt
2.5% chocolate wheat malt

I will say, of the two recipes I'd most like to try the first one. Really curious how it would turn out, even if it's not "to style" perfectly. (though it's within the numbers for a weizen.)

I use BJCP and other style references as guidelines, not rules. I just want to brew a good beer, and if it's not perfectly to style, then so what? I'm not competing, nor do I desire to. I'd rather have folks enjoy my beers than win a BJCP ruled event.

yep no roast smell or taste. chocolate wheat or midnight wheat get the boost in color. end of mash or just in sparge suffices.

+1 steering away from copious amounts of crystal IMO

[Iliff Ave]

I use BJCP and other style references as guidelines, not rules. I just want to brew a good beer, and if it's not perfectly to style, then so what? I'm not competing, nor do I desire to. I'd rather have folks enjoy my beers than win a BJCP ruled event.

That's pretty much how I brew as well. Lately, I have enjoyed brewing to style then figuring out how I want to tweak it for my tastes. This seems to work better for me since if I have never brewed that style to begin with, I have no basis for the adjustments I want to make and I end up missing on the intended beer...

[Phil_M]

That's pretty much how I brew as well. Lately, I have enjoyed brewing to style then figuring out how I want to tweak it for my tastes. This seems to work better for me since if I have never brewed that style to begin with, I have no basis for the adjustments I want to make and I end up missing on the intended beer...

I've done that as well, and honestly I'd probably be doing that with this beer if I wasn't trying to "fix" something from the commercial examples. The first recipe is inspired by the open fermentation wheat beer from Brewing TV episode 4. I had only wheat/dark wheat/pils on my recipe, then noticed that Dawson used some munich in his beer. Figured why not try it?

[erockrph]

There are a lot of ways to skin these particular cats. For my hefe I like to keep it simple: 60:40 wheat:pils

For my dunkelweizen I do like a touch of crystal malt character. I usually use about 7% Caramunich III, and go with a mix of wheat malt, Dark Munich and Vienna for the base malt. Then I use chocolate wheat for color adjustment. I haven't had a chance to play with Dark Wheat, but I'm planning on it for my next shot at this style.

[Phil_M]

Been mulling over some of this a bit.

For the weizen, the goal is to up the bready/malt character a bit, without being overpowering or too far from the stereotypical weizen. reverseapachemaster mentioned going with pale ale malt instead of pils, thinking that could be an alternative to the munich.

Something else I want to avoid is the Sierra Nevada Kellerweis syruppy sweet character. I'd forgotten how much I don't care for this quality in what's supposed to be a quenching beer, and remembering this has me even happier to be moving away from the caramel malts for the dunkelweizen option.