[a10t2]

Quaff was like 8 points away...reading the parts of this thread that I did you'd think the BN won by a landslide.  I really don't understand the arguments or the booing.  There are other awards that better fit your club.

The booing is shameful and a rule change specifically designed to exclude the BN (no online clubs, e.g.) is just the procedural equivalent.

The argument that most people (in this thread, anyway) seem to agree with is that it doesn't make much sense to have an award called "Club of the Year" if at most three or four clubs have a chance at competing for it.

[dkfick]

Seems to me that all Justin can do is suggest this or that. I suppose he could tell the AHA to remove his company name from the list of registered clubs. But joe blow could register BN Army as a club. Or any fictitious "club" they so choose. The BN Army is really just a word describing people who are fans. To join one simply says they are BN Army. This points back to what I was trying to say, if there are rules defining "club" for the purpose of COTY, who is going to police that? Given that COTY apparently doesnt mean much and does more harm than good, perhaps it has outlived its usefulness. As to the booing, I suppose that will take care of itself. Either its acceptable behavior like at a pro wrestling event, or its not and peer pressure will eliminate it.

I think this is what irritates people about calling the BN a club.  That is just not a homebrew club to me.  I really feel like BN being treated on level grounds with real homebrew clubs is againsts the spirit of such club awards.  It's like starting a campaign to have everyone enter their beers under 'Biggest Club Ever'... then once everyone does and you win a club award is that really in the spirit of the award?  It's simply not a club.  My club has no chance of winning something like COTY but I would prefer under any iteration that it goes to an actual homebrew club vs a bunch of people just typing the name in that field because they don't have a club.

Entering beers in the NHC under no club doesn't exclude anyone from anything.  I know it will be said they are excluded from the club awards but since they are not really in a club they should be. A club is more than just a name you enter your beers under.

PS.  This is all opinion and I'm allowed to have them. BN is not a club.

I don't wish to rehash this all on this thread... If you feel strongly about something and want to discuss PM me.  I think there are some good ideas to make COTY more meaningful and fair in this thread and I didn't want to muck it up... but I felt I needed to express why seeing BN treated as a club is unsettling to me.

[reverseapachemaster]

I think this is what irritates people about calling the BN a club.  That is just not a homebrew club to me.  I really feel like BN being treated on level grounds with real homebrew clubs is againsts the spirit of such club awards.  It's like starting a campaign to have everyone enter their beers under 'Biggest Club Ever'... then once everyone does and you win a club award is that really in the spirit of the award?  It's simply not a club.  My club has no chance of winning something like COTY but I would prefer under any iteration that it goes to an actual homebrew club vs a bunch of people just typing the name in that field because they don't have a club.

Maybe this is a reason why COTY should go away entirely. COTY was born in a time when most homebrew clubs were fairly small and generally homebrewing spread because people joined the club or met people from the club who brought them into the fold. Clubs could also enter as many entries as they could so the size of the club was not as significant as the number of ribbons won. Many people get into homebrewing and discuss it with people outside of the traditional club model. The sense of connection people feel towards a particular forum or podcast or whatever can be just as valid as the connection people feel with those they communicate with online. Rather than asking whether the BN Army is a club we should ask whether it even matters. Maybe the traditional club no longer fills such an important role that we need to reward any group for coming together and nominating officers. Perhaps homebrewing has expanded so much that we no longer need to cloister physically to share meaningful information and promote the hobby.

[dkfick]

Seems to me that all Justin can do is suggest this or that. I suppose he could tell the AHA to remove his company name from the list of registered clubs. But joe blow could register BN Army as a club. Or any fictitious "club" they so choose. The BN Army is really just a word describing people who are fans. To join one simply says they are BN Army. This points back to what I was trying to say, if there are rules defining "club" for the purpose of COTY, who is going to police that? Given that COTY apparently doesnt mean much and does more harm than good, perhaps it has outlived its usefulness. As to the booing, I suppose that will take care of itself. Either its acceptable behavior like at a pro wrestling event, or its not and peer pressure will eliminate it.

Maybe this is a reason why COTY should go away entirely. COTY was born in a time when most homebrew clubs were fairly small and generally homebrewing spread because people joined the club or met people from the club who brought them into the fold. Clubs could also enter as many entries as they could so the size of the club was not as significant as the number of ribbons won. Many people get into homebrewing and discuss it with people outside of the traditional club model. The sense of connection people feel towards a particular forum or podcast or whatever can be just as valid as the connection people feel with those they communicate with online. Rather than asking whether the BN Army is a club we should ask whether it even matters. Maybe the traditional club no longer fills such an important role that we need to reward any group for coming together and nominating officers. Perhaps homebrewing has expanded so much that we no longer need to cloister physically to share meaningful information and promote the hobby.

I agree you can gain a lot from online groups and even the BN podcasts/forums. I still hold that that doesn't make it a homebrew club.  I don't see a need for the award to go away altogether. It should be a competitive and fun award and instead it's being dominated by this coalition.

I also agree as it currently stands the award will almost always go to the club that can flood the most regions. I feel that should be changed to at least only look at medals in the final round.

[Phil_M]

But what sort of precedent does that set? If we lop off the BN, something else will follow. Folks will end up griping about whatever head springs up to replace them.

I don't have any issue with online clubs. Really, how are they any different than a large club where not everyone attends meeting and there's some sort of newsletter/email for those who can't make it?

I say leave the rules the same, just reduce the prominence of the award/make Gambrinus more prominent. Anything else just seems to be unfair to either the BN, or those members of the homebrewing community who for whatever reason aren't a part of a "traditional" club.

I'm not affiliated with any club, except this forum. I don't have time. If I did enter a competition, I'd put this forum down as my club. If I had the time to join the local club, I would, and that would be what I'd enter on entry sheets. I doubt anyone who is a regular participant in a local "traditional" club is writing BN on their entry sheets.

[tommymorris]

PS.  This is all opinion and I'm allowed to have them. BN is not a club.

I agree, but, if you define "club" it maybe difficult to enforce the definition.

Also, I think if the BN club organized themselves; online meetings, a board of directors, etc. they would start to be much closer to any reasonable definition of a club that could be written.

[bboy9000]

Yes, everyone is allowed to have an opinion but if those in the BN Army feel like they are a club then it's a club.  Like was mentioned earlier, the sense of connection I get from the BN is just as valid as any you get from your club and I'm getting tired of trying to justify that to people that just don't like the BN winning or whatever.

[oldstoneface]

I think it would be cool, and meaningful if this award had a limit on the number of beers entered by each club like say 10. That way each club would actually be doing something together and it would not just be a tally of individual entries.

This discourages folks from entering. Which 10 people get to enter? Who decides that?

So think about it.  Do we want to recognize the club with the most points in the competition or not?  If not, what should we be recognizing?

Kinda wondering if you actually did read all 20 pages of this thread because I'm pretty sure that most folks chatting here clearly state they want this to be a competitive award and not solely be for the 2 clubs that  actually have enough entries to win this award. If it's going to remain a tonnage style award, then I would like to see Radegast and Gambrinus elevated with more pomp and circumstance as both those awards are equally achievable for all clubs and AHA members, unlike COTY.

Quaff was like 8 points away...reading the parts of this thread that I did you'd think the BN won by a landslide.  I really don't understand the arguments or the booing.  There are other awards that better fit your club.

The next closest club was 78 points behind QUAFF (despite dominating the final round). So basically this award is winnable by 2 out of the 1700 AHA clubs nationwide, which seems a tad bit narrow-minded IMHO.

[melliott2811]

So, is the BN a business or a club, or is it both?  The problem isn't that the BN has active membership or that the BN has won several years in a row.  No one is booing the individual brewers that choose to enter under the BN name.  The problem is that the whole conference has turned into a BN marketing campaign.  The first evening event of the week is ticketed BN party, then BN is featured prominently in the exhibition hall selling merch, then BN wins the competition that they happen to be streaming and Justin gets up on stage to further promote the brand (no, not everyone should talk either or the banquet would be too long).  Sure, the GC could change things, but Justin also has influence there.  The solution isn't to ban anyone just to have a couple other clubs take the BN's place.  The solution is to separate the business from the club.  I am not sure how the BN can even call itself a club since members have no control.  Make Justin control the business side and elect a real board for the BN club that consists of active members (or something to that effect).  That change could also be a means to facilitate regional BN clubs if that was the way they wanted to go, but I don't want to have to force them to split up.  There is just too much conflict of interest.

As an aside, maybe the GC should reweigh points to focus more on final round than first round.  I don't know how the points shake out exactly, but seems to me that clubs that win four or five medals in final shouldn't be losing to a club that won two just because the latter put so much more in first round.

[oldstoneface]

PS.  This is all opinion and I'm allowed to have them. BN is not a club.

I agree, but, if you define "club" it maybe difficult to enforce the definition.

Also, I think if the BN club organized themselves; online meetings, a board of directors, etc. they would start to be much closer to any reasonable definition of a club that could be written.

But none of this is required by the AHA, so the BN club is a club, just like the 1700 other clubs recognized by the AHA. The only thing that would change their status is if the AHA were to actually define what a club is and these clubs did not meet these requirements. Granted that isn't going to change the mind of anyone who does not think online clubs are clubs in the "traditional form," but doesn't change the reality that they are all currently AHA recognized clubs.

[bboy9000]

Kinda wondering if you actually did read all 20 pages of this thread

Again, if you want the rules changed then write a letter to the Governing Committee or the Competition Committee.  Few members on those boards are going to read this forum and with over 300 posts even the ones that do aren't going to remember every detail.

[dkfick]

PS.  This is all opinion and I'm allowed to have them. BN is not a club.

I agree, but, if you define "club" it maybe difficult to enforce the definition.

Also, I think if the BN club organized themselves; online meetings, a board of directors, etc. they would start to be much closer to any reasonable definition of a club that could be written.

I would agree with that.  If it were an actual club with organization and structure.  But as it is (or at least how I've perceived it) it's just a bunch of people writing down they are in the same club because they listen to the same podcasts and (possibly) use the same forums.

I'm not saying there should be a rule to exclude them.  I was only bringing it up as to what I think the real reason for the 'hate' towards them winning stuff like COTY.  I think, at least for me, it's mostly because they are perceived (correctly or incorrectly) as not being a real club.  I personally feel like it's not a club in the spirit of the competition.

Yes, everyone is allowed to have an opinion but if those in the BN Army feel like they are a club then it's a club.  Like was mentioned earlier, the sense of connection I get from the BN is just as valid as any you get from your club and I'm getting tired of trying to justify that to people that just don't like the BN winning or whatever.

We're going to have to agree to disagree on people "feeling like they are a club" making it a real club.  I have no doubt you can/do have a connection with the podcasts and even members of their forums etc... I don't see that as a club.

ok ok... No more drama for me.  This is my last post on the issue.  Since it's my last post on this... I'll also sneak this in... I felt the booing at the awards ceremony was for the AHA for allowing what is perceived (correctly or incorrectly) as a non-club to win COTY again.  Maybe I'm wrong but that's what it seemed like to me from conversations at the event itself.  The people that were on stage for BN I don't think we even a factor as the disgust was at the absurdity of the award.

[oldstoneface]

Again, if you want the rules changed then write a letter to the Governing Committee or the Competition Committee.  Few members on those boards are going to read this forum and with over 300 posts even the ones that do aren't going to remember every detail.

I wrote the GC Comp committee last week. In my comment, I was referencing tschmidlin's statement that he had read through all 20 pages yet his comments seemed to be asking questions that many of us had already addressed within those 20 pages.

[Nacho]

PS.  This is all opinion and I'm allowed to have them. BN is not a club.

I agree, but, if you define "club" it maybe difficult to enforce the definition.

Also, I think if the BN club organized themselves; online meetings, a board of directors, etc. they would start to be much closer to any reasonable definition of a club that could be written.

I would agree with that.  If it were an actual club with organization and structure.  But as it is (or at least how I've perceived it) it's just a bunch of people writing down they are in the same club because they listen to the same podcasts and (possibly) use the same forums.

I'm not saying there should be a rule to exclude them.  I was only bringing it up as to what I think the real reason for the 'hate' towards them winning stuff like COTY.  I think, at least for me, it's mostly because they are perceived (correctly or incorrectly) as not being a real club.  I personally feel like it's not a club in the spirit of the competition.

Yes, everyone is allowed to have an opinion but if those in the BN Army feel like they are a club then it's a club.  Like was mentioned earlier, the sense of connection I get from the BN is just as valid as any you get from your club and I'm getting tired of trying to justify that to people that just don't like the BN winning or whatever.

We're going to have to agree to disagree on people "feeling like they are a club" making it a real club.  I have no doubt you can/do have a connection with the podcasts and even members of their forums etc... I don't see that as a club.

ok ok... No more drama for me.  This is my last post on the issue.  Since it's my last post on this... I'll also sneak this in... I felt the booing at the awards ceremony was for the AHA for allowing what is perceived (correctly or incorrectly) as a non-club to win COTY again.  Maybe I'm wrong but that's what it seemed like to me from conversations at the event itself.  The people that were on stage for BN I don't think we even a factor as the disgust was at the absurdity of the award.

You had no problem using the BN Army to try to get elected to the GC though... hmm.. The poor sportsmanship and flat out adult tantrums on this thread is embarrassing.

[klickitat jim]

Justin said he's not taking the stage or mic for COTY again. So, that problem is solved. We can stop hammering out that detail.

Justin doesn't control the club anymore than he controlled me entering a couple beers under the club name. I wasnt asked to join, I wasnt asked to participate. 

For the sake of COTY, and under current COTY rules, the BN is a club, regardless of anyone's feelings. Otherwise we wouldn't have won five times in a row.

If you knew anything about it you would know that COTY is an albatross around the BNs neck. Justin and company were hoping to lose so the drama could be pointed elsewhere.

Clubs, real clubs, that want to be awesome clubs and expand their membership and win this award, should stop pouting and do the work to clean up their act and attract people away from things like the BN. No one was forced to choose BN as their club for COTY.

The current importance of COTY rests solely on the people who are making it a big deal. If you want other awards to matter more, spend more time talking about those awards, and when they announce COTY just sit there. Cricket cricket... and dont mention it again. Don't whine that someone else should make it less important for you.

What is this? As you read up on the latest biggest event in homebrewing, 99% of it is about how everyone got screwed out of an award, and how the booing was upseting, and the rooms sucked, and they didn't teach me enough,  and there was a moron in line for an event before AHA, etc etc. A small percentage was about how fun it was and the people are great. Come on people! This is supposed to be fun, supposed to be a hobby, supposed to be a bit of an escape from the daily grind.

Its a good thing my Dad isnt in charge. He'd just cancel the whole thing.