[RPIScotty]

Kai has chimed in:

http://braukaiser.com/blog/blog/2016/04/30/low-oxygen-brewing/

[zwiller]

When malting my grain, I use potassium metabisulfite and hydrogen peroxide during the steeping phase.  It kills all the bad guys and leaves the grain fluffy (and bleached).  Never had a problem with malt aroma.  Of course one should always use a small! amount! of high alpha hops and a small! amount! of flavor/aroma hops.  My beers always have "it". 

Wait a minute...  Home malting and "it" is MY theory!  More details PLEASE.   

[reverseapachemaster]

Maybe somebody who knows more about this subject can explain what I really do not understand about their theory (maybe I overlooked the explanation in the paper). If oxygen creates unpleasant flavors or destroys pleasant flavors in the grain in a matter of hours in the brewing process then why do these reactions not occur during the days/weeks/months between malting the grain and brew day?

Is heat accelerating the reactions?

Is solubility a factor?

Are reactions worse with compounds in the interior of the grain? If so, what accounts for the lack of reaction with oxygen already within the grain?

[wobdee]

Maybe the husks protect the grain like an apple skin protects the fruit?

[beersk]

Kai has chimed in:

http://braukaiser.com/blog/blog/2016/04/30/low-oxygen-brewing/

Good to see Kai posting about it. Curious as hell to see if he experiments with this and what he finds.

[HoosierBrew]

Kai has chimed in:

http://braukaiser.com/blog/blog/2016/04/30/low-oxygen-brewing/

Good to see Kai posting about it. Curious as hell to see if he experiments with this and what he finds.

Yeah, some extra info on it from Kai would be great. I hope he posts more soon.

[mabrungard]

Maybe somebody who knows more about this subject can explain what I really do not understand about their theory (maybe I overlooked the explanation in the paper). If oxygen creates unpleasant flavors or destroys pleasant flavors in the grain in a matter of hours in the brewing process then why do these reactions not occur during the days/weeks/months between malting the grain and brew day?

Is heat accelerating the reactions?

Is solubility a factor?

Are reactions worse with compounds in the interior of the grain? If so, what accounts for the lack of reaction with oxygen already within the grain?

A lot of reactions and molecular formation goes on in the mash due to the aqueous environment that we create. That can't happen in the kernel (except if its really wet, ala crystal malt). So the fact that this staling reaction doesn't occur in the grain in the months between malting and mashing isn't a surprise to me.

I see that the German Brewing group was not the first to pose this concern with oxygen: http://www.ibdlearningzone.org.uk/article/show/pdf/494/, so I'm not dismissive of the premise. The thing is that keeping oxygen out of the mash and wort and avoiding this degradation is like the war on Terrorism. You have to win the battle against oxygen 100% of the time. That is a tough thing to do. And considering that it only takes minutes for oxygen to create this staling reaction, I'm not sure that we could ever avoid oxygen contact to a large enough degree to taste an actual difference in our beers.

I've reviewed the molar amount of oxygen in our tap water at mashing temperature and I recognize that it actually takes only a fraction of the metabisulfite amount that is recommended in the German group's article. But then I recognized that the wort is constantly subjected to potential atmospheric oxygen contact and I'm guessing that the excess meta is in there to keep up the protection. I can see that blanketing the mash and wort with another gas like CO2 or N2 could help avoid using up the meta dose. Fortunately, the excess sulfite in the wort will be volatilized to sulfur dioxide in the boil and it leaves the wort. So you don't have to worry about sulfite in your beer.

 

[denny]

I see that the German Brewing group was not the first to pose this concern with oxygen: http://www.ibdlearningzone.org.uk/article/show/pdf/494/, so I'm not dismissive of the premise. The thing is that keeping oxygen out of the mash and wort and avoiding this degradation is like the war on Terrorism. You have to win the battle against oxygen 100% of the time. That is a tough thing to do. And considering that it only takes minutes for oxygen to create this staling reaction, I'm not sure that we could ever avoid oxygen contact to a large enough degree to taste an actual difference in our beers.

I've reviewed the molar amount of oxygen in our tap water at mashing temperature and I recognize that it actually takes only a fraction of the metabisulfite amount that is recommended in the German group's article. But then I recognized that the wort is constantly subjected to potential atmospheric oxygen contact and I'm guessing that the excess meta is in there to keep up the protection. I can see that blanketing the mash and wort with another gas like CO2 or N2 could help avoid using up the meta dose. Fortunately, the excess sulfite in the wort will be volatilized to sulfur dioxide in the boil and it leaves the wort. So you don't have to worry about sulfite in your beer.

The first graph very well sums up my take on it, too.  As to the second graph, I'm not concerned about sulfite for the reason you mentioned.  But how much sodium ends up in your beer if you follow their recommendations?

[hopfenundmalz]

I asked a few about US breweries that use DO water. DO water is produced for boiler feed water and pushing beer long distances. The macros use it to also dilute the high gravity brews down to packaged strength. Since it it the water in the brewery, they use it for mashing. A guy with the initials JP said Sierra Nevada and Firestone Walker use DO water for the mash. Both of those also have GEA Huppmann brew houses with Millstar wet mills.

So US breweries mash with DO water. I'm not sure if they use the same ingredients (malt), or other processes like Augustiner. I do think Sierra Nevada makes some tasty lagers, and they did get a WBC Gold for a German Pilsner in 2010. They had it that year.

[trentm]

When malting my grain, I use potassium metabisulfite and hydrogen peroxide during the steeping phase.  It kills all the bad guys and leaves the grain fluffy (and bleached).  Never had a problem with malt aroma.  Of course one should always use a small! amount! of high alpha hops and a small! amount! of flavor/aroma hops.  My beers always have "it". 

Wait a minute...  Home malting and "it" is MY theory!  More details PLEASE.   

During the steeping schedule after the initial cleaning an amount of Potassium Metabisulfite is added to the steeping water, an equivalent molar mass of hydrogen peroxide (3%) is also added to the water.  Hydrogen Peroxide oxidizes the Sulfite (almost instantly at pH's less than 4, the steeping water won't be this low however thus it will take some time longer) while oxygenating the water and adding it's own cleaning power.

I use a tablet of Potassium Metabisulfate with 2 cups of 3% Hydrogen Peroxide per 5 gallons of steep water change (~12lbs of grain).  It's important to agitate the grain several times during each steeping stage to release the bubbles trapped in the steeping water below the grain and bring the bad stuff to the top.

As a matter of opinion, perhaps some of the sulfites become trapped in the husk, avoiding the peroxide and thus carryover to the mash.

Briggs states that steeping water additional such as sulfites and peroxide are rare on a commercial scale.

As is the case, I'm not a scientist just a guy who gets a kick out-of malting his own grain.

[Steve Ruch]

Did any of you guys get this email?

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I guess that's it then. I'm sure I won't be invited to join the Knights Templar of brewing...

This, coupled with their ridiculous forum rules, only confirms what a bunch of egomaniac tools they are.

I'm still waiting for my invitation, luckily I'm not holding my breath.

[Steve Ruch]

It may not be possible to eliminate oxygen out of every step in the brewing process but this thread and others like it suck the oxygen out of this forum.

+1
I wonder why the author(s) of the article have not responded to the various questions and comments.

No one is allowed to question them on anything: if they say something it is the final solution. I'm still waiting for an explanation as to why I was so abruptly banned. I have figured it out, but I'd still like to have one of them actually admit to the ludicrous reason.

[HoosierBrew]

The thing is that keeping oxygen out of the mash and wort and avoiding this degradation is like the war on Terrorism. You have to win the battle against oxygen 100% of the time. That is a tough thing to do. And considering that it only takes minutes for oxygen to create this staling reaction, I'm not sure that we could ever avoid oxygen contact to a large enough degree to taste an actual difference in our beers.

Yeah, that's exactly my concern. I like to experiment, so I'm not against the idea of giving it a shot. But being a cooler masher, the realities of excluding O2 completely so I could notice the (assumed) results are daunting. 

[Steve Ruch]

At first I was interested to see what they'd found and how it was justified.  Even as I became more and more skeptical, I was still interested in finding out.  After reading their forum rules, that's changed.  They are completely contrary to what I believe homebrewing to be about.  At this point, I don't care and wouldn't join that forum for a mountain of gold.

Main Rules

1) Forum topics - Keep discussion on topic as related to a specific forum: German beer brewing, culture, process, ingredients and commercial examples, or bread/travel as appropriate. Please ask the admins to create new topic areas if you think of something that would be useful.

2) Culture - Be careful when discussing and applying American Homebrewing gospel to German brewing. We are open minded and not willing to accept the 'status quo' of American homebrewing convention as the approach that works for brewing German Beer. We've been down that road and tried nearly everything. We are on a quest for reproducing German beer styles. Not "Americanized" versions, not 'close', but authentic and true to style, whatever it takes to do this - have an open mind, but don't quote American brewing dogma. If you are on the same path, join us. If not, this is not the forum for you. This is not a beginner forum.

3) References - Members have gone to great lengths to translate German texts, learn, understand and test German brewing processes. We are particular about what is deemed reliable reference material; essentially, if it wouldn't be taken seriously in a professional or scholarly environment, it won't be taken seriously here. Professional texts and published scientific studies are preferred; books and materials intended solely for homebrewers and/or written by folks without professional or academic credentials are not acceptable sources. We welcome your research and input that moves us all forward, not around in circles.

4) Exchange of knowledge - information posted here is meant to stay here, not be reposted to other forums or online sources. This is a private research and discussion forum, and as such we expect collaboration to occur here and remain here.

5) Our Mission - We are looking for like minded folks to join us on our quest for German brewing excellence. This forum was established to capture and share research among our group. It is not a public/open forum, but we welcome new members and are always seeking folks passionate about brewing German beer, who bring engineering, biology (botany, malting science, microbiology), chemistry and process control knowledge to the group and have a passion to learn and share in our experiments and process development.

And the unmentioned rules.
6) All articles published anywhere MUST be approved by us prepublication and if we don't like it out you go.
7) We don't have to answer to anyone.

It's really difficult to refrain from making fun of such people.

[narcout]

Yeah, that's exactly my concern. I like to experiment, so I'm not against the idea of giving it a shot. But being a cooler masher, the realities of excluding O2 completely so I could notice the (assumed) results are daunting.

I don't see why it would be any more difficult to pull off with a cooler mashtun.  There are brewers on the GBF are doing it.

For someone like myself who doesn't brew a lot of lagers, there are a lot of new techniques to learn.  However, after reading through the paper a few times, they seem doable.  I'm sure I will screw a few things up along the way, and there will be definitely be a learning curve.

Things I will have to learn:

-Correct strike water temperature for no sparge (with a higher volume of strike water, I will probably have to mash in at a lower temperature than usual)

-Correct water temperature and volume for hitting the 72C rest (I might due a single temp mash while I try to get everything else nailed down)

-The effect of doughballs and possible uneveness of mash temperature due to minimal or no stirring during mash in

-How high to set burners for target of 10% evaporation (I typically boil for 90 minutes and have a much higher evaporation rate)

-Getting to pitch temperature using an immersion chiller (ground water here is too hot; I will have to employ a pre-chiller or get a pump for re-circulating ice water; I also need to buy an SS chiller)

-Timing the racking properly so there is enough extract left to carbonate naturally utilizing the spunding valve (ordered the parts for the valve yesterday)

Ales supposedly benefit as well, so I might try that first.  That will at least help with the chilling issue.