[erockrph]

Good idea!  I still can't believe that age cream ale being fresh. I close transfer ALL my beers from primary directly into keg into cold fridge for storage (35F) and mine definitely do not stay that fresh that long. I have heard of other brewers (I believe Randy Scorby IIRC) medaling the same way with a 1yr + rauchbier. I must be doing something wrong if mine don't taste that good at that age...

Did they bottle condition? Beers can improve for months in the bottle with live yeast to scavenge O2 and very slowly gnaw away at long-chain carbohydrates. Lagers taste a lot better at six months or more and I would expect cream ale to improve too. The only thing that deteriorates quickly is dry-hopped pale ale - loses hop aroma in 3-4 months. You should also get improvement in a keg if there's active yeast around.

Completely disagree that "lagers taste better at 6 months or more". Lager beer is best when fresh, as is most beer. Perhaps with the exception of a high gravity doppelbock.

Bottled lager isn't very good fresh - usually still murky and undercarbonated. If you lager it properly, the conditioning process does take a few months in the cold. Stored warm it might peak earlier.

If you cold-condition around 30F, most lagers are clear and ready to go in 2-4 weeks of conditioning in my experience. If you bottle-condition you need to let them full carbonate at room temp first, then cold condition.

[dilluh98]

Or sours, or Brett beers, or RIS, or barleywine, or big saisons, ...

None of these are lagers.

"Lager beer is best when fresh, as is most beer."

[zwiller]

Just left my LHBS and they called Wyeast who told them that Brewtan B is not available for homebrewers.

They did not specify why, but he said that's pretty odd since they can usually order "pro" items from Wyeast and White Labs with no issues.

Once they find out there's a homebrew market for it, they will. I email them semi-regularly to vote on PC strains that I can't believe aren't year rounds (2487, 3864, and 3726 at top of the list) so maybe email votes are a good idea there, too.

Brewtan B is tannic acid and pretty much every LHBS carries it in the winemaking area.  AFAIK the difference is that Brewtan B is "high molecular weight" and sediments easier as it is heavier.  Much like Polyclar is offered in various formulations.  Interesting side note: Polyclar is also available in a form in which breweries can harvest and reuse it. 

3726 definitely needs to be year round.  Such an incredible strain.   

[blair.streit]

Just left my LHBS and they called Wyeast who told them that Brewtan B is not available for homebrewers.

They did not specify why, but he said that's pretty odd since they can usually order "pro" items from Wyeast and White Labs with no issues.

Once they find out there's a homebrew market for it, they will. I email them semi-regularly to vote on PC strains that I can't believe aren't year rounds (2487, 3864, and 3726 at top of the list) so maybe email votes are a good idea there, too.

Brewtan B is tannic acid and pretty much every LHBS carries it in the winemaking area.  AFAIK the difference is that Brewtan B is "high molecular weight" and sediments easier as it is heavier.  Much like Polyclar is offered in various formulations.  Interesting side note: Polyclar is also available in a form in which breweries can harvest and reuse it. 

3726 definitely needs to be year round.  Such an incredible strain.   

Yes, but the product available at the link below is also tannic acid, and causes much different results. This product is intended to create permanent haze, so it seems like the formulation is very important.

https://www.wyeastlab.com/com_b_productdetail.cfm?ProductID=12

I wouldn't want to just throw tannic acid for  wine into my beer and end up creating permanent haze. I think there's more to understand here. If it were just a concentration issue why would Wyeast sell these as different products?

[majorvices]

Or sours, or Brett beers, or RIS, or barleywine, or big saisons, ...

None of these are lagers.

"Lager beer is best when fresh, as is most beer."

I

Yep, a good 80% of beers are best when fresh with some exceptions as you mentioned.

[HoosierBrew]

Interesting side note: Polyclar is also available in a form in which breweries can harvest and reuse it.     

Didn't know that, either.

[mpietropaoli]

These papers and products talk specifically about shelf stability 6-12 months out and other stability issues like haze reduction.  It's a big jump to say that these will do anything other than accelerate the traditional lagering process.

Exactly. It's hard to believe that brewtan could cause a significant improvement in itness that professional brewers have failed to notice. It sounds a bit like snake oil to me. A triangle test should shine a bit more light on things.

Unfortunately, we don't really know what "itness" is, so it may be hard to decide if a beer has "it".

"It" is a phenol in the malt.  That oxidizes almost immediately upon dough-in without inert gas or a chemical alternative to eat up/bind to O2.  For which different people have different flavor thresholds, just like any flavor compound. 

Homebrewers believe pretty readily that if you smell hops over your kettle, that is aroma that you want in your beer, when you drink it, that is instead making your garage smell great for an hour.  Why is it so inconceivable that a similar compound exists in malt, and if your mash smells great, those compounds are leaving your wort, and will certainly not be in your beer?

[majorvices]

Regarding lagers getting better with age: I brew commercial lagers for a living. I do not want my customers drinking 6 months old beer neither kegged nor bottled regardless if it is stored cold. If lagers tasted better at 6 months you would think the imported German lager beers we get over here would be stellar. Instead they are usually lacking greatly.

[zwiller]

I think there's more to understand here.

Tanal A is to be use post ferment.  Pretty big difference use than hot side.  I would wager it is sterile while Brewtan B is not.  Just a wild guess. 

I used tannic acid for about 6 beers and never had any clarity issues.  Also, note most of the studies presented in this thread did not use Brewtan B, but tannic acid.  I am not trying to dissuade anyone from Brewtan B, just letting folks know they don't have to join a COOP or order from Aussieland to get something to fool with this weekend.   

[homoeccentricus]

Just left my LHBS and they called Wyeast who told them that Brewtan B is not available for homebrewers.

I can buy it in a homebrew shop in the Netherlands: http://www.vanderkooyjubbega.nl/wyeast-brewtan-b-50-gram.html - 50 grams, 13.5 euros.

[zwiller]

Just left my LHBS and they called Wyeast who told them that Brewtan B is not available for homebrewers.

I can buy it in a homebrew shop in the Netherlands: http://www.vanderkooyjubbega.nl/wyeast-brewtan-b-50-gram.html - 50 grams, 13.5 euros.

Can you send me some and then while you're at it... 

[blair.streit]

I think there's more to understand here.

Tanal A is to be use post ferment.  Pretty big difference use than hot side.  I would wager it is sterile while Brewtan B is not.  Just a wild guess. 

I used tannic acid for about 6 beers and never had any clarity issues.  Also, note most of the studies presented in this thread did not use Brewtan B, but tannic acid.  I am not trying to dissuade anyone from Brewtan B, just letting folks know they don't have to join a COOP or order from Aussieland to get something to fool with this weekend.   

I think there's more to understand here.

Tanal A is to be use post ferment.  Pretty big difference use than hot side.  I would wager it is sterile while Brewtan B is not.  Just a wild guess. 

I used tannic acid for about 6 beers and never had any clarity issues.  Also, note most of the studies presented in this thread did not use Brewtan B, but tannic acid.  I am not trying to dissuade anyone from Brewtan B, just letting folks know they don't have to join a COOP or order from Aussieland to get something to fool with this weekend.   

Thanks for pointing that out -- I read right past that detail when reading the descriptions. I'm still trying to wrap my head around the fact that the same substance would clarify/settle proteins in the mash or boil but suspend them in finished beer. I guess on the hot side it depends on the physical help of lautering and/or whirlpooling to encourage settling and on the cold side the absence of that keeps it suspended?

[homoeccentricus]

Just left my LHBS and they called Wyeast who told them that Brewtan B is not available for homebrewers.

I can buy it in a homebrew shop in the Netherlands: http://www.vanderkooyjubbega.nl/wyeast-brewtan-b-50-gram.html - 50 grams, 13.5 euros.

Can you send me some and then while you're at it... 

Sure. Some suspicious looking light brown powder in an envelope.

[pete b]

Just left my LHBS and they called Wyeast who told them that Brewtan B is not available for homebrewers.

I can buy it in a homebrew shop in the Netherlands: http://www.vanderkooyjubbega.nl/wyeast-brewtan-b-50-gram.html - 50 grams, 13.5 euros.

You can buy a lot of things in the Netherlands...

[HoosierBrew]

I'm still trying to wrap my head around the fact that the same substance would clarify/settle proteins in the mash or boil but suspend them in finished beer.

I wonder if the higher molecular wt of Brewtan B as compared to standard tannic doesn't bond and drop out the proteins much more effectively than standard.