[blair.streit]

Maybe I don't want to know any more about tannic acid. From the Wikipedia:

Vaginally, tannic acid can be used as a douche for white or yellowish discharge, i.e., leukorrhea.

[zwiller]

I'm still trying to wrap my head around the fact that the same substance would clarify/settle proteins in the mash or boil but suspend them in finished beer.

I wonder if the higher molecular wt of Brewtan B as compared to standard tannic doesn't bond and drop out the proteins much more effectively than standard.

Yep, I think you're spot on.  Physical.  Seems all of this seemingly complex stuff is not really at all.  That is not to say Tanal and Brewtan are "exactly" the same, nor is Brewtan B and tannic acid. 

While I agree the high molecular weight of Brewtan has a definite advantage over tannic acid, I think the bond would be the same or perhaps even better but a slower drop than Brewtan.  In my experiments, I used it in the mash and thought since I was lautering it was a wash.  I believe I had brighter runoffs but just no magic in the glass.

[dilluh98]

There's definitely something else going on in Brewtan B. There has to be either some modification to the tannic acid itself or another component that is dropping the pH of a 1% solution down to the 3-4 range. A simple calculation of 1% solution of pure tannic acid should be in the pH = 6 range, not 3-4. That's a huge difference.

[charles1968]

If you cold-condition around 30F, most lagers are clear and ready to go in 2-4 weeks of conditioning in my experience. If you bottle-condition you need to let them full carbonate at room temp first, then cold condition.

2-4 weeks is about right for carbonating at room temperature. After that it takes a few weeks to fully drop out chill haze. However, lagers are traditionally carbonated cold rather than at room temp, which extends the whole process up to 6 months. Stored cold after that, they stale very slowly.

I think it's very different if you force cab a lager in a keg. Without priming sugar there's no longer any active fermentation to scavenge O2 and clean up diacetyl etc. The shelf life is a lot shorter.

[charles1968]

If lagers tasted better at 6 months you would think the imported German lager beers we get over here would be stellar. Instead they are usually lacking greatly.

Traditionally German lagers would be about 6 months old on serving. Imported bottled beers don't travel well though. Agitation and warm temps accelerate the chemical reactions that cause staling. If the beers aren't bottle conditioned, the shelf life is even shorter.

[zwiller]

There's definitely something else going on in Brewtan B. There has to be either some modification to the tannic acid itself or another component that is dropping the pH of a 1% solution down to the 3-4 range. A simple calculation of 1% solution of pure tannic acid should be in the pH = 6 range, not 3-4. That's a huge difference.

Very interesting. 

[denny]

Bottled lager isn't very good fresh - usually still murky and undercarbonated. If you lager it properly, the conditioning process does take a few months in the cold. Stored warm it might peak earlier.

Completely disagree based on my own experience.

[Stevie]

In my opinion, few styles get better with age. If beer tastes "green" and needs age to taste "better," something is wrong.

[charles1968]

Bottled lager isn't very good fresh - usually still murky and undercarbonated. If you lager it properly, the conditioning process does take a few months in the cold. Stored warm it might peak earlier.

Completely disagree based on my own experience.

Aren't you force carbing and kegging though? It's different if you bottle and cold condition. I would define fresh as the point at which it's ready to drink, i.e. fully carbonated and cleared. If you have an acceleratred maturing process then fresh might be a lot earlier for you than me.

from braukaiser.com:

Key for a good lagering is control of the yeast contents and temperature profile such that the fermentation slowly continues during the whole time the beer is lagered. Only this allows for the processes to happen that are commonly referred to as maturation: reduction of diacetyl, acedealdehyde, higher alcohols etc. The lagering takes between 4 weeks and 6 months.

[narvin]

"It" is a phenol in the malt.  That oxidizes almost immediately upon dough-in without inert gas or a chemical alternative to eat up/bind to O2.  For which different people have different flavor thresholds, just like any flavor compound. 

Homebrewers believe pretty readily that if you smell hops over your kettle, that is aroma that you want in your beer, when you drink it, that is instead making your garage smell great for an hour.  Why is it so inconceivable that a similar compound exists in malt, and if your mash smells great, those compounds are leaving your wort, and will certainly not be in your beer?

More junk science.  5ppm of oxygen is not the cause of hop aroma compounds being destroyed, it is the temperature of the wort.  The aroma comes from evaporation, not anything else.

Have you identified this compound?  Does a lager lose its aroma after sitting in a glass for a few minutes as this phenol is oxidized?

[mpietropaoli]

More junk science.  5ppm of oxygen is not the cause of hop aroma being lost, it is the temperature of the wort.

Have you identified this compound?  Does a lager lose its aroma after sitting in a glass for a few minutes as this phenol is oxidized?

I left my gas chromatograph at home today, so no I have not identified it.  I didn't say that O2 was the reason for hop aroma leaving beer, I said its the reason for the malt compound leaving the beer/wort. 

But my question is why homebrewers are willing to accept some 'junk' science, and reject others.  It seems to me, its because a few kids wouldn't let others play in their elite kickball league on the playground.

and yes, a lager does lose its aroma when in a glass, just like a hoppy beer!  If they're in your nose, they're not in your beer (or at least, not as many of them, so with 100+ IBU, all late hop beers, it may not make as much of a difference).

Just a question, not meaning to be pointed, but have you tried this method, or even the 'fast extract' test they recommend?  Its just strange to me that people have so much energy to debate this and poke holes in it on the internet, but zero energy to give it a shot themselves (very un-homebrewer!)

[denny]

I left my gas chromatograph at home today, so no I have not identified it.  I didn't say that O2 was the reason for hop aroma leaving beer, I said its the reason for the malt compound leaving the beer/wort. 

But my question is why homebrewers are willing to accept some 'junk' science, and reject others.  It seems to me, its because a few kids wouldn't let others play in their elite kickball league on the playground.

and yes, a lager does lose its aroma when in a glass, just like a hoppy beer!  If they're in your nose, they're not in your beer.

Sorry you see it like that.  For me, it's because they have presented no evidence other than "I said so".

[narvin]

More junk science.  5ppm of oxygen is not the cause of hop aroma being lost, it is the temperature of the wort.

Have you identified this compound?  Does a lager lose its aroma after sitting in a glass for a few minutes as this phenol is oxidized?

I left my gas chromatograph at home today, so no I have not identified it.  I didn't say that O2 was the reason for hop aroma leaving beer, I said its the reason for the malt compound leaving the beer/wort. 

But my question is why homebrewers are willing to accept some 'junk' science, and reject others.  It seems to me, its because a few kids wouldn't let others play in their elite kickball league on the playground.

and yes, a lager does lose its aroma when in a glass, just like a hoppy beer!  If they're in your nose, they're not in your beer (or at least, not as many of them, so with 100+ IBU, all late hop beers, it may not make as much of a difference).

Just a question, not meaning to be pointed, but have you tried this method, or even the 'fast extract' test they recommend?  Its just strange to me that people have so much energy to debate this and poke holes in it on the internet, but zero energy to give it a shot themselves (very un-homebrewer!)

Many people here are planning to do tests, including me.  So I'm not rejecting it, just the claims that make no sense to me and have no evidence to back them up.

I try not to accept any junk science.  Does a beer actually lose its nose, or does it just lose its carbonation that is carrying it out of the glass?  Obviously everything we smell is caused by molecules being given off, but if the mash can remain aromatic for 60 minutes, how is it possible that a 30 second exposure to oxygen has "destroyed" the aroma?

[mpietropaoli]

Many people here are planning to do tests, including me.  So I'm not rejecting it, just the claims that make no sense to me and have no evidence to back them up.

I try not to accept any junk science.  Does a beer actually lose its nose, or does it just lose its carbonation that is carrying it out of the glass?  Obviously everything we smell is caused by molecules being given off, but if the mash can remain aromatic for 60 minutes, how is it possible that a 30 second exposure to oxygen has "destroyed" the aroma?

Ok, now I get ya. 

FTR, I am not blindly swallowing this either.  But most of the guys on that forum can brew.  Really well.  So at the outset, I figured it was worth a listen and a try. 

I don't think its that the aroma is 'destroyed'.  On a different scale, that is like saying blasting a finished beer with oxygen will 'destroy' the flavor of the beer.  The beer will still have flavor, it will just be a different flavor, maybe the one you want, maybe not...likely not.  Supposedly the phenol is very volatile, and very easily falls prey to creepy drifter O2 molecules. 

I have tried and judged lots of lagers, and many of them are really really really good...and solid...and drinkable.  So you can absolutely make a good beer, even a beer that many will think is great (in American craft beer standards) without Lodo brewing. 

But I absolutely do taste a difference in fresh, non-abused German beer.  Even lining up an excellent, celebrated American version like Pivo Pils or Prima against Warsteiner or Radenberger, the beer just tastes different.  If someone cannot taste the difference, or dismisses it as confirmation bias, etc., fine...but I don't.  And in talking to several of these guys, I believe they are on to something. 

We tried this on a helles on our 1/2bbl system, and I have to say, ZERO malt/'mash' aroma during the mash.  The fermenter sample tasted like something I have not tasted in 85-ish batches. 

Again I really don't mean to be snarky, but I have just read way too many 'discussions' on homebrewer boards that end with "it works for me" or "I can't tell the difference" to believe that there is a rigorous scientific, peer-reviewed standard that applies to all changes in widely-accepted homebrewing dogma. 

Off-topic, are you a member of any clubs in Baltimore?  If Baltibrew or CSI, tell Boddy and Brent that Pietro said they are each a coward and a cheat. 

[narvin]

Many people here are planning to do tests, including me.  So I'm not rejecting it, just the claims that make no sense to me and have no evidence to back them up.

I try not to accept any junk science.  Does a beer actually lose its nose, or does it just lose its carbonation that is carrying it out of the glass?  Obviously everything we smell is caused by molecules being given off, but if the mash can remain aromatic for 60 minutes, how is it possible that a 30 second exposure to oxygen has "destroyed" the aroma?

Ok, now I get ya. 

FTR, I am not blindly swallowing this either.  But most of the guys on that forum can brew.  Really well.  So at the outset, I figured it was worth a listen and a try. 

I don't think its that the aroma is 'destroyed'.  On a different scale, that is like saying blasting a finished beer with oxygen will 'destroy' the flavor of the beer.  The beer will still have flavor, it will just be a different flavor, maybe the one you want, maybe not...likely not.  Supposedly the phenol is very volatile, and very easily falls prey to creepy drifter O2 molecules. 

I have tried and judged lots of lagers, and many of them are really really really good...and solid...and drinkable.  So you can absolutely make a good beer, even a beer that many will think is great (in American craft beer standards) without Lodo brewing. 

But I absolutely do taste a difference in fresh, non-abused German beer.  Even lining up an excellent, celebrated American version like Pivo Pils or Prima against Warsteiner or Radenberger, the beer just tastes different.  If someone cannot taste the difference, or dismisses it as confirmation bias, etc., fine...but I don't.  And in talking to several of these guys, I believe they are on to something. 

We tried this on a helles on our 1/2bbl system, and I have to say, ZERO malt/'mash' aroma during the mash.  The fermenter sample tasted like something I have not tasted in 85-ish batches. 

Again I really don't mean to be snarky, but I have just read way too many 'discussions' on homebrewer boards that end with "it works for me" or "I can't tell the difference" to believe that there is a rigorous scientific, peer-reviewed standard that applies to all changes in widely-accepted homebrewing dogma. 

Off-topic, are you a member of any clubs in Baltimore?  If Baltibrew or CSI, tell Boddy and Brent that Pietro said they are each a coward and a cheat. 

I'm planning on starting with mini-mashes in a randall with and without.  It's interesting that the mash is not aromatic when using a O2 scavenging compound, but I still think that reading into this (and what exactly the pathways are for aroma) is a stretch, and things are being over simplified.

The thing about American breweries not having "it" makes me wonder as well.  I know Sierra Nevada and Victory use extremely modern brew systems and minimize O2, and Firestone had a Steinecker sytem.  Victory also uses German malts.

Lol.  You want a picture of Boddy in a spedo? Me neither.