[brewinhard]

Assuming there's a noticeable difference, I'm interested to see if:

1/  The beer seems better initially, ie., when the keg is first tapped ( meaning that the prevented oxidation of malt compounds delivered a better tasting beer).

OR

2/ The beer seems the same initially but has much longer shelf life (ie., stays fresh tasting/smelling).


Even if the concensus is on #2, it seems like a positive to me. Guess we'll see.



Edit - Of course there's #3 as a possibility - nobody can tell a difference in a fresh or aged beer.

I would most definitely add it to my beers if any of those options were the case. They all seem like benefits to me.
I wonder if Majorvices stopped using it commercially simply due to the fact that his product is moving quickly and not experiencing negative effects from oxidation on the commercial level?

Yeah, I wonder. On all these batches I brew using it, I'm gonna put back a few bottles of each and wait for 6 months + to sample them. Denny told the story of Joe's year + old cream ale still being fresh, a style that goes stale well before that normally. That's encouraging.

Good idea!  I still can't believe that age cream ale being fresh. I close transfer ALL my beers from primary directly into keg into cold fridge for storage (35F) and mine definitely do not stay that fresh that long. I have heard of other brewers (I believe Randy Scorby IIRC) medaling the same way with a 1yr + rauchbier. I must be doing something wrong if mine don't taste that good at that age...

[blair.streit]

Just left my LHBS and they called Wyeast who told them that Brewtan B is not available for homebrewers.

They did not specify why, but he said that's pretty odd since they can usually order "pro" items from Wyeast and White Labs with no issues.

[HoosierBrew]

Just left my LHBS and they called Wyeast who told them that Brewtan B is not available for homebrewers.

They did not specify why, but he said that's pretty odd since they can usually order "pro" items from Wyeast and White Labs with no issues.

Once they find out there's a homebrew market for it, they will. I email them semi-regularly to vote on PC strains that I can't believe aren't year rounds (2487, 3864, and 3726 at top of the list) so maybe email votes are a good idea there, too.

[klickitat jim]

These papers and products talk specifically about shelf stability 6-12 months out and other stability issues like haze reduction.  It's a big jump to say that these will do anything other than accelerate the traditional lagering process.

Exactly. It's hard to believe that brewtan could cause a significant improvement in itness that professional brewers have failed to notice. It sounds a bit like snake oil to me. A triangle test should shine a bit more light on things.

Unfortunately, we don't really know what "itness" is, so it may be hard to decide if a beer has "it".

I smell a podcast topic. It! Myth, Magic, or Bulls It?

[Phil_M]

I smell a podcast topic. It! Myth, Magic, or Bulls It?

That's quote worthy, I'm tempted to steal it for my signature.

[denny]

These papers and products talk specifically about shelf stability 6-12 months out and other stability issues like haze reduction.  It's a big jump to say that these will do anything other than accelerate the traditional lagering process.

Exactly. It's hard to believe that brewtan could cause a significant improvement in itness that professional brewers have failed to notice. It sounds a bit like snake oil to me. A triangle test should shine a bit more light on things.

Unfortunately, we don't really know what "itness" is, so it may be hard to decide if a beer has "it".

I smell a podcast topic. It! Myth, Magic, or Bulls It?

I'll do it if you'll come on the show to lend your thoughts!

[charles1968]

Good idea!  I still can't believe that age cream ale being fresh. I close transfer ALL my beers from primary directly into keg into cold fridge for storage (35F) and mine definitely do not stay that fresh that long. I have heard of other brewers (I believe Randy Scorby IIRC) medaling the same way with a 1yr + rauchbier. I must be doing something wrong if mine don't taste that good at that age...

Did they bottle condition? Beers can improve for months in the bottle with live yeast to scavenge O2 and very slowly gnaw away at long-chain carbohydrates. Lagers taste a lot better at six months or more and I would expect cream ale to improve too. The only thing that deteriorates quickly is dry-hopped pale ale - loses hop aroma in 3-4 months. You should also get improvement in a keg if there's active yeast around.

[majorvices]

Good idea!  I still can't believe that age cream ale being fresh. I close transfer ALL my beers from primary directly into keg into cold fridge for storage (35F) and mine definitely do not stay that fresh that long. I have heard of other brewers (I believe Randy Scorby IIRC) medaling the same way with a 1yr + rauchbier. I must be doing something wrong if mine don't taste that good at that age...

Did they bottle condition? Beers can improve for months in the bottle with live yeast to scavenge O2 and very slowly gnaw away at long-chain carbohydrates. Lagers taste a lot better at six months or more and I would expect cream ale to improve too. The only thing that deteriorates quickly is dry-hopped pale ale - loses hop aroma in 3-4 months. You should also get improvement in a keg if there's active yeast around.

Completely disagree that "lagers taste better at 6 months or more". Lager beer is best when fresh, as is most beer. Perhaps with the exception of a high gravity doppelbock.

[dilluh98]

Or sours, or Brett beers, or RIS, or barleywine, or big saisons, ...

[HoosierBrew]

Good idea!  I still can't believe that age cream ale being fresh. I close transfer ALL my beers from primary directly into keg into cold fridge for storage (35F) and mine definitely do not stay that fresh that long. I have heard of other brewers (I believe Randy Scorby IIRC) medaling the same way with a 1yr + rauchbier. I must be doing something wrong if mine don't taste that good at that age...

Did they bottle condition? Beers can improve for months in the bottle with live yeast to scavenge O2 and very slowly gnaw away at long-chain carbohydrates. Lagers taste a lot better at six months or more and I would expect cream ale to improve too. The only thing that deteriorates quickly is dry-hopped pale ale - loses hop aroma in 3-4 months. You should also get improvement in a keg if there's active yeast around.

Completely disagree that "lagers taste better at 6 months or more". Lager beer is best when fresh, as is most beer. Perhaps with the exception of a high gravity doppelbock.

Also disagree that cream ale gets better with time. I've brewed quite a few and they don't get any better after maybe 2 or 3 months IMO.

[RPIScotty]

Or sours, or Brett beers, or RIS, or barleywine, or big saisons, ...

None of these are lagers.

[brewinhard]

Good idea!  I still can't believe that age cream ale being fresh. I close transfer ALL my beers from primary directly into keg into cold fridge for storage (35F) and mine definitely do not stay that fresh that long. I have heard of other brewers (I believe Randy Scorby IIRC) medaling the same way with a 1yr + rauchbier. I must be doing something wrong if mine don't taste that good at that age...

Did they bottle condition? Beers can improve for months in the bottle with live yeast to scavenge O2 and very slowly gnaw away at long-chain carbohydrates. Lagers taste a lot better at six months or more and I would expect cream ale to improve too. The only thing that deteriorates quickly is dry-hopped pale ale - loses hop aroma in 3-4 months. You should also get improvement in a keg if there's active yeast around.

Completely disagree that "lagers taste better at 6 months or more". Lager beer is best when fresh, as is most beer. Perhaps with the exception of a high gravity doppelbock.

+1.  All of my average gravity (1.040-1.060) brews (lagers or ales) taste best within the first 2 months.  I close transfer with CO2 directly from primary into keg and am very anal about O2 pickup and I can still taste the very beginning of malt freshness starting to fade towards the end of this time frame.  Beer is best when fresh especially if its in a bottle. The only beers that improve with aging are my strong ones and even those are quite drinkable by 4-6 months time.

[charles1968]

Good idea!  I still can't believe that age cream ale being fresh. I close transfer ALL my beers from primary directly into keg into cold fridge for storage (35F) and mine definitely do not stay that fresh that long. I have heard of other brewers (I believe Randy Scorby IIRC) medaling the same way with a 1yr + rauchbier. I must be doing something wrong if mine don't taste that good at that age...

Did they bottle condition? Beers can improve for months in the bottle with live yeast to scavenge O2 and very slowly gnaw away at long-chain carbohydrates. Lagers taste a lot better at six months or more and I would expect cream ale to improve too. The only thing that deteriorates quickly is dry-hopped pale ale - loses hop aroma in 3-4 months. You should also get improvement in a keg if there's active yeast around.

Completely disagree that "lagers taste better at 6 months or more". Lager beer is best when fresh, as is most beer. Perhaps with the exception of a high gravity doppelbock.

Also disagree that cream ale gets better with time. I've brewed quite a few and they don't get any better after maybe 2 or 3 months IMO.

Do you keg or bottle condition? Store warm or cold? You do seem to be saying they peak at 2-3 months, which implies improvement in storage.

[charles1968]

Good idea!  I still can't believe that age cream ale being fresh. I close transfer ALL my beers from primary directly into keg into cold fridge for storage (35F) and mine definitely do not stay that fresh that long. I have heard of other brewers (I believe Randy Scorby IIRC) medaling the same way with a 1yr + rauchbier. I must be doing something wrong if mine don't taste that good at that age...

Did they bottle condition? Beers can improve for months in the bottle with live yeast to scavenge O2 and very slowly gnaw away at long-chain carbohydrates. Lagers taste a lot better at six months or more and I would expect cream ale to improve too. The only thing that deteriorates quickly is dry-hopped pale ale - loses hop aroma in 3-4 months. You should also get improvement in a keg if there's active yeast around.

Completely disagree that "lagers taste better at 6 months or more". Lager beer is best when fresh, as is most beer. Perhaps with the exception of a high gravity doppelbock.

Bottled lager isn't very good fresh - usually still murky and undercarbonated. If you lager it properly, the conditioning process does take a few months in the cold. Stored warm it might peak earlier.

[HoosierBrew]

Good idea!  I still can't believe that age cream ale being fresh. I close transfer ALL my beers from primary directly into keg into cold fridge for storage (35F) and mine definitely do not stay that fresh that long. I have heard of other brewers (I believe Randy Scorby IIRC) medaling the same way with a 1yr + rauchbier. I must be doing something wrong if mine don't taste that good at that age...

Did they bottle condition? Beers can improve for months in the bottle with live yeast to scavenge O2 and very slowly gnaw away at long-chain carbohydrates. Lagers taste a lot better at six months or more and I would expect cream ale to improve too. The only thing that deteriorates quickly is dry-hopped pale ale - loses hop aroma in 3-4 months. You should also get improvement in a keg if there's active yeast around.

Completely disagree that "lagers taste better at 6 months or more". Lager beer is best when fresh, as is most beer. Perhaps with the exception of a high gravity doppelbock.

Also disagree that cream ale gets better with time. I've brewed quite a few and they don't get any better after maybe 2 or 3 months IMO.

Do you keg or bottle condition? Store warm or cold? You do seem to be saying they peak at 2-3 months, which implies improvement in storage.

I keg. I'm saying that it's a style best fresh IMO, and that it seems at its best for 2-3 months, but I don't see it needing or getting better @ 6 months. Just me.