[rabeb25]

I am a no sparge(sorta) brewer, over my 700 batches about 400 have been my hybrid no sparge and on my current system.
My specs are as follows.
65% single infusion 60 minute mash

75% step mash, from 90-240 minutes. 100% mash efficiency

85% step mash + decoction. As decoction is the only way to burst the hard starches, once bursted they are now available for the enzymes to chew on. 100%+ (right around 105% actually) mash efficiency.

[Kit B]

To further derail... For the curious, do you know the equations (or have a link to them) for calculating boiling water additions for such a step mash?

Here's a good start, for you:
http://howtobrew.com/book/section-3/the-methods-of-mashing/calculations-for-boiling-water-additions

[RPIScotty]

I'm just surprised that the subject of decoction as being necessary to a true Helles has not been raised - 

Don't wake them back up from their slumbers. They just calmed down about it.

First off, posts like this wake me back up. As YOU could have left it well enough alone yourself, there Mr. pompous engineer. Guess what, there are other engineers in the world, shocking I know. The problem though is almost all of them come off just as you do.

Secondly, as I sit here and happen to be brewing a Helles, which I happen to be decocting. I will tell you its not the answer to a true Helles...A part? Ehh, maybe. There are breweries in Munich (and else where) that no longer decoction mash. I will say with almost certainty a single infusion mash (ala the English method) won't get you there. But there are those who are fine with that, and those who aren't, and thats cool too. Add in the 80/20 rule and all that.

I find it interesting you chose the word pompous.

[Kit B]

Sounds like another XBmt to be undertaken....Marshall???

Is seems to me that if an XBMT is done, there should be some criteria set up, in advance.
Maybe something like:
1) Simple grain bill...Say, maybe 95% Pilsner & 5% assorted cara grains, as decided by ____
(all the same German ingredients...No Briess, Rahr, or other North American/UK/Belgian substitutions)

2) Comparison of:
 a) Single Infusion
 b) Multiple Rest Infusion
 c) Multiple Rest HERMS/RIMS
 d) Multiple Rest Decoction
(Maybe, also compare single infusions, at different temperatures?)
(All Multiple rest mashes should be comparable...Let's compare apples to apples.)

3) Same hop schedules in all recipes

4) Same yeasts used, in all recipes

5) Similar chilling temperatures

6) Similar pitch & fermentation temperatures

In the end, these should all be compared & weighed against a classic example, to see where they fall short & how they are close.

But, heck...I'm just spitballing here.
There are a lot of experts here, far more qualified to figure this out, than I am.

[rabeb25]

I'm just surprised that the subject of decoction as being necessary to a true Helles has not been raised - 

Don't wake them back up from their slumbers. They just calmed down about it.

First off, posts like this wake me back up. As YOU could have left it well enough alone yourself, there Mr. pompous engineer. Guess what, there are other engineers in the world, shocking I know. The problem though is almost all of them come off just as you do.

Secondly, as I sit here and happen to be brewing a Helles, which I happen to be decocting. I will tell you its not the answer to a true Helles...A part? Ehh, maybe. There are breweries in Munich (and else where) that no longer decoction mash. I will say with almost certainty a single infusion mash (ala the English method) won't get you there. But there are those who are fine with that, and those who aren't, and thats cool too. Add in the 80/20 rule and all that.

I find it interesting you chose the word pompous.

Why hear it often?

Case and point Your signature. Not the childish part you just added, the need to show the world you are an engineer.

[RPIScotty]

I'm just surprised that the subject of decoction as being necessary to a true Helles has not been raised - 

Don't wake them back up from their slumbers. They just calmed down about it.

First off, posts like this wake me back up. As YOU could have left it well enough alone yourself, there Mr. pompous engineer. Guess what, there are other engineers in the world, shocking I know. The problem though is almost all of them come off just as you do.

Secondly, as I sit here and happen to be brewing a Helles, which I happen to be decocting. I will tell you its not the answer to a true Helles...A part? Ehh, maybe. There are breweries in Munich (and else where) that no longer decoction mash. I will say with almost certainty a single infusion mash (ala the English method) won't get you there. But there are those who are fine with that, and those who aren't, and thats cool too. Add in the 80/20 rule and all that.

I find it interesting you chose the word pompous.

Why hear it often?

Case and point Your signature. Not the childish part you just added, the need to show the world you are an engineer.

You don't get it do you?

[rabeb25]

I totally get it. But it makes you look just as bad.

[Joe Sr.]

You two need to take it off line.

Thanks.

[RPIScotty]

You two need to take it off line.

Thanks.

Understood.

[Kit B]

I find it interesting you chose the word pompous.

What's more interesting is that the guy that was touting his professionalism was the first to start calling names, such as "zealot" & "self righteous", way back in this thread.

You were right, when you said "It's BEER".
But, some people take their brewing more seriously than you.
It's just the way of the world.
Different strokes, for different folks.
If you're OK with mediocre...That's cool.
But, please don't tell me that my quest for real information is wrong.

Some people prefer more seriousness in the things they set out to teach or learn.
I, for one, would like to learn from sources that takes my thirst for proven practices & concrete knowledge
seriously.
I don't want someone to just sell me kits, "stuff" & equipment.
I think it's extremely sad that today's brewing culture has turned into the search for an answer to:
"How can I make a buck off this hobby?".

Some of us just expect more than flawed experiments & mediocre beers.
Some are on a quest to brew something that stands up to the real thing, from the real brewers...
Not something that is simply "a good beer" that seems close to another "good beer".

It's fine with me that you are not on that quest.
Is it fine with you that I am?

[dilluh98]

To further derail... For the curious, do you know the equations (or have a link to them) for calculating boiling water additions for such a step mash?

Here's a good start, for you:
http://howtobrew.com/book/section-3/the-methods-of-mashing/calculations-for-boiling-water-additions

Thanks. I know I've seen these before. 

[Kit B]

To further derail... For the curious, do you know the equations (or have a link to them) for calculating boiling water additions for such a step mash?

Here's a good start, for you:
http://howtobrew.com/book/section-3/the-methods-of-mashing/calculations-for-boiling-water-additions

Thanks. I know I've seen these before. 

Unfortunately, I think something in the formula given might be lacking.
For sure, the specific heat & mass of your vessel are missing, but that's usually a small factor.
To me, there also seems to be a comparison portion of the formula missing.
I'll have to dig some more.
But, that information will get you extremely close.

[dilluh98]

The powerful influence of one's expectation on perception of taste is vastly understated in this derailed discussion.

[Joe Sr.]

Agree 100% and made a similar point earlier.

[RPIScotty]

To further derail... For the curious, do you know the equations (or have a link to them) for calculating boiling water additions for such a step mash?

Here's a good start, for you:
http://howtobrew.com/book/section-3/the-methods-of-mashing/calculations-for-boiling-water-additions

Thanks. I know I've seen these before. 

Unfortunately, I think something in the formula given might be lacking.
For sure, the specific heat & mass of your vessel are missing, but that's usually a small factor.
To me, there also seems to be a comparison portion of the formula missing.
I'll have to dig some more.
But, that information will get you extremely close.

There is a real nice thread over at HBT where a gentleman went though and derived the equation from its basis in thermodynamics and then compared it to Palmers simplification in HTB. If I can find it I'll post it. It may have the missing pieces your talking about.

Palmer simplified the equation for general use.

EDIT: found it - https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=24895.msg318648#msg318648