[Pinski]

Denny's Zum Uerige recipe is the closest one I ever brewed that tastes like the real McCoy.

The real McCoy is a treat indeed. I gained an entirely new appreciation for this style on our visit to Dusseldorf.  Imagine this is a common occurrence.

[hopfenundmalz]

Denny's Zum Uerige recipe is the closest one I ever brewed that tastes like the real McCoy.

Yes it is! The last one I brewed was close. I have lost several afternoons at Zum Uerige, 0.25 Liter at a time.

[jeffy]

Many years ago I attempted over several batches to make an authentic Altbier.  I learned as the previous posters have noted, that it is best with mostly Pilsner malt with just a little Munich malt.
I found that spalt hops did not provide the "punch" that was needed.  They didn't contrast enough with the malt flavor to provide the proper bitterness.  I ended up using other noble hops instead.

[majorvices]

I found that spalt hops did not provide the "punch" that was needed.  They didn't contrast enough with the malt flavor to provide the proper bitterness.  I ended up using other noble hops instead.

That's interesting because I have found Spalt hops are critical to getting that "Altish" flavor.

[jeffy]

I found that spalt hops did not provide the "punch" that was needed.  They didn't contrast enough with the malt flavor to provide the proper bitterness.  I ended up using other noble hops instead.

That's interesting because I have found Spalt hops are critical to getting that "Altish" flavor.

My Alt experiments were done in the mid 1990's so they may have been different then.  All of my reading at the time suggested Spalt would be perfect, but not in my beers.

[majorvices]

I found that spalt hops did not provide the "punch" that was needed.  They didn't contrast enough with the malt flavor to provide the proper bitterness.  I ended up using other noble hops instead.

That's interesting because I have found Spalt hops are critical to getting that "Altish" flavor.

My Alt experiments were done in the mid 1990's so they may have been different then.  All of my reading at the time suggested Spalt would be perfect, but not in my beers.

Perhaps it was your supplier. You should check them out again. I think they are very distinctive to the style.

[denny]

Denny's Zum Uerige recipe is the closest one I ever brewed that tastes like the real McCoy.

Thanks, chumley.  But in all fairness, that recipe came from the brewmaster at Zum Uerige, so it should!

To the OP....search this forum for that recipe if you want to see one way a trad German D. alt is made.

[Ancient Abbey]

I made two alts last year, with two different recipes that were calculated to come out to the same color, brewed in the same temperature controlled chamber with the same batch of yeast split evenly between the two beers.  The main difference was the base malt.  One was made with a pilsner base and medium amount of specialty malts to reach 13.5 SRM, and the other was made with a munich base will lower amounts of the same specialty malts to reach 13.5 SRM.  I was lucky enough to pass the beers by the palates of one grandmaster and two national judges, two of whom have extensive experience drinking in Dusseldorf.  All three of them said the difference was subtle, and may not have noticed if you had served them over the course of the night; however, all three selected the munich base as the beer they preferred.  I sent it on to various comps and won 2 gold and 1 silver medals with it, including a trip to the second round NHC. 

I'm convinced from this experience that the difference is very minor, but the munich base adds a certain intangible quality to it.  Is it enough for breweries to forgo the cost savings of just buying pilsner malt and some specialties?  Probably not.  Is it enough to win the nod between 1st and 2nd?  I think so. 

All Weyermann malts. 
WLP036 yeast. 
30 IBU Haller/spalt @ FWH
3 IBU Haller/spalt @ 15min
pitch @ 58F, free rise to 63F, hold

Beer 1                                            Beer 2
83.5% Pilsner                                  90% Munich I
 6.0%  Carared                                3%   Carared
 9.0%  melanoidin                            6%   melanoidin
 1.5%  carafa spiii                            1%   carafa spiii

[jeffy]

I made two alts last year, with two different recipes that were calculated to come out to the same color, brewed in the same temperature controlled chamber with the same batch of yeast split evenly between the two beers.  The main difference was the base malt.  One was made with a pilsner base and medium amount of specialty malts to reach 13.5 SRM, and the other was made with a munich base will lower amounts of the same specialty malts to reach 13.5 SRM.  I was lucky enough to pass the beers by the palates of one grandmaster and two national judges, two of whom have extensive experience drinking in Dusseldorf.  All three of them said the difference was subtle, and may not have noticed if you had served them over the course of the night; however, all three selected the munich base as the beer they preferred.  I sent it on to various comps and won 2 gold and 1 silver medals with it, including a trip to the second round NHC. 

I'm convinced from this experience that the difference is very minor, but the munich base adds a certain intangible quality to it.  Is it enough for breweries to forgo the cost savings of just buying pilsner malt and some specialties?  Probably not.  Is it enough to win the nod between 1st and 2nd?  I think so. 

All Weyermann malts. 
WLP036 yeast. 
30 IBU Haller/spalt @ FWH
3 IBU Haller/spalt @ 15min
pitch @ 58F, free rise to 63F, hold

Beer 1                                            Beer 2
83.5% Pilsner                                  90% Munich I
 6.0%  Carared                                3%   Carared
 9.0%  melanoidin                            6%   melanoidin
 1.5%  carafa spiii                            1%   carafa spiii

That is very good information.  Thanks for posting.

[brewinhard]

+1.  Always interesting to see how different people "skin the cat".  I have several iterations of my dusseldorf alt that I have been brewing over the years too.  One has a blend of pilsner, munich, and vienna for the base and the other has mainly pilsner malt with specialty malts to bump up the color and maltiness.  Both do well in comps, but I am not sure which I prefer more.

[HoosierBrew]

I think both recipes look very tasty, though having brewed the Zum Uerige recipe that Denny posted from the brewer, that's the one I prefer. Gotta say though, it's kinda hard to believe that the differences were that subtle. Undoubtedly both beers were very well made, but a nearly all pils beer vs. a nearly all Munich beer ? I assume the Munich beer was dried out a bit more (probably) with gypsum and bittered higher to compensate. Just hard to believe they'd be very similar.  I can always be wrong.

[Ancient Abbey]

I think both recipes look very tasty, though having brewed the Zum Uerige recipe that Denny posted from the brewer, that's the one I prefer. Gotta say though, it's kinda hard to believe that the differences were that subtle. Undoubtedly both beers were very well made, but a nearly all pils beer vs. a nearly all Munich beer ? I assume the Munich beer was dried out a bit more (probably) with gypsum and bittered higher to compensate. Just hard to believe they'd be very similar.  I can always be wrong.

As I stated in the description, the only difference was the base and the amount of specialty needed to keep them the same color.  Neither had gypsum added.  Both had the same target IBU's.  Why would you assume I manipulated only one beer with gypsum or a different bittering level to obfuscate and invalidate the experiment? Weyermann Munich I is only 5-7L.  Are you sure you're not confused with dark munich (range from 8-30L)? 

The whole point of using cara/crystal/caramel malts is to substitute the melanoidins and other flavor compounds missing in low-kilned malts that are present in high-kilned malts.  Thats the same reason they make very high-kilned malts like abbey, honey and light and dark melanoidin malts.  It's really not that hard to understand, nor believe. 

[HoosierBrew]

I think both recipes look very tasty, though having brewed the Zum Uerige recipe that Denny posted from the brewer, that's the one I prefer. Gotta say though, it's kinda hard to believe that the differences were that subtle. Undoubtedly both beers were very well made, but a nearly all pils beer vs. a nearly all Munich beer ? I assume the Munich beer was dried out a bit more (probably) with gypsum and bittered higher to compensate. Just hard to believe they'd be very similar.  I can always be wrong.

As I stated in the description, the only difference was the base and the amount of specialty needed to keep them the same color.  Neither had gypsum added.  Both had the same target IBU's.  Why would you assume I manipulated only one beer with gypsum or a different bittering level to obfuscate and invalidate the experiment? Weyermann Munich I is only 5-7L.  Are you sure you're not confused with dark munich (range from 8-30L)? 

The whole point of using cara/crystal/caramel malts is to substitute the melanoidins and other flavor compounds missing in low-kilned malts that are present in high-kilned malts.  Thats the same reason they make very high-kilned malts like abbey, honey and light and dark melanoidin malts.  It's really not that hard to understand, nor believe. 

OK gotcha. No offense intended. I only meant that I've brewed mostly pale Munich and mostly pils beers that, while both delicious, weren't necessarily similar. I'm sure both your beers were very tasty.

[IMperry9]

Hey everybody just wanted to give you an update. So I went ahead and used mostly all Munich malt, the  %recipe changed a bit because of what I had available so it went like this. My LHBS ran out of Munich when I was .59lbs away from my desired 10lbs... so I subbed in pilsner.
5 GALLONS
9.41lbs Avangard Light Munich Malt 6L
.69lbs Avangard Pilsner Malt
1oz Carafa III Special

I did a double decoction mash as planned, I read on the Brew Your Own that having a mash thickness between 2.1 and 2.6 would help maintain efficiency so I mashed around 2.5 qrts/lbs.
WLP036 is what I used and it is going strong at 52F, Thick krausen and bubbling away I pitched a 1L starter and one vial. My efficiency was higher than expected probably around 75% rather than my expected 70%. Away I can't wait to see how this one turns out. Prost!
 

[Ancient Abbey]

I think you are gonna like it.

WLP036 flocs out like WLP002 for me, so I highly recommend ramping the temp up into the 60's to make sure it attenuates fully.  I usually pitch at 57-58F and let if rise to 60F.  I've never tried it at 52F.