[IMperry9]

Yeah I definitely will be raising the temp, I want to try to get it to 58F to 60F for the next couple days. I just added a heat pad to raise it a bit.

[Ancient Abbey]

I usually finish mine out at 66-68F.

[brewinhard]

I usually finish mine out at 66-68F.

+1.  Just like a typical diacetyl rest for a lager.

[IMperry9]

Yeah eventually will move it from the garage to inside the house to warm up to that temp.

[charles1968]

I made two alts last year, with two different recipes that were calculated to come out to the same color, brewed in the same temperature controlled chamber with the same batch of yeast split evenly between the two beers.  The main difference was the base malt.  One was made with a pilsner base and medium amount of specialty malts to reach 13.5 SRM, and the other was made with a munich base will lower amounts of the same specialty malts to reach 13.5 SRM.  I was lucky enough to pass the beers by the palates of one grandmaster and two national judges, two of whom have extensive experience drinking in Dusseldorf.  All three of them said the difference was subtle, and may not have noticed if you had served them over the course of the night; however, all three selected the munich base as the beer they preferred.  I sent it on to various comps and won 2 gold and 1 silver medals with it, including a trip to the second round NHC. 

I'm convinced from this experience that the difference is very minor, but the munich base adds a certain intangible quality to it.  Is it enough for breweries to forgo the cost savings of just buying pilsner malt and some specialties?  Probably not.  Is it enough to win the nod between 1st and 2nd?  I think so. 

All Weyermann malts. 
WLP036 yeast. 
30 IBU Haller/spalt @ FWH
3 IBU Haller/spalt @ 15min
pitch @ 58F, free rise to 63F, hold

Beer 1                                            Beer 2
83.5% Pilsner                                  90% Munich I
 6.0%  Carared                                3%   Carared
 9.0%  melanoidin                            6%   melanoidin
 1.5%  carafa spiii                            1%   carafa spiii

In my experience too light Munich and Vienna are only subtly difference from Pilsner malt. Yet there are lots of recipes out there with 5% Munich or 5% Vienna, used as though they're crystal malt. Completely pointless.

[denny]

In my experience too light Munich and Vienna are only subtly difference from Pilsner malt. Yet there are lots of recipes out there with 5% Munich or 5% Vienna, used as though they're crystal malt. Completely pointless.

I agree with you.

[Ancient Abbey]

In my experience too light Munich and Vienna are only subtly difference from Pilsner malt. Yet there are lots of recipes out there with 5% Munich or 5% Vienna, used as though they're crystal malt. Completely pointless.

IDK, a Helles tastes a lot better with 5% Vienna or Munich. 

[charles1968]

In my experience too light Munich and Vienna are only subtly difference from Pilsner malt. Yet there are lots of recipes out there with 5% Munich or 5% Vienna, used as though they're crystal malt. Completely pointless.

IDK, a Helles tastes a lot better with 5% Vienna or Munich.

In reality or the imagination? Only a proper taste test would convince me. If the difference is hard to tell at nearly 100%, I'm willing to bet money that it can't be detected at 5%.

[Ancient Abbey]

Apparently in your imagination. 

Making blanket statements is just foolish.  Will you taste them at 5% in a complex or full flavored recipe?  Unlikely.  Will you taste them in a simple or nuanced recipe?  Most will. 

You should also note, it took 3% more carared, 3% more melanoidin and 0.5% more carafa sp to make the pilsner base beer taste like a Munich base beer.  If Pilsner and Munich tasted the same, then the beer with the extra specialty malts should have stood out. Unless you are suggesting those three malts don't affect flavor either...

Have someone who brews good beer do a smash lager series for you.  100% Pilsner, 100% Vienna, 100% L. Munich and 100% D. Munich.  They all taste different and have their place in brewing for a reason.   

[HoosierBrew]

If the difference is hard to tell at nearly 100%, I'm willing to bet money that it can't be detected at 5%.

Problem is I completely disagree with this assertion. So by this logic I should be able to brew an authentic bock or doppelbock with all pils ? No freaking way.


Edit - I realize that dark Munich is more intensely malty. But I guess we clearly perceive pils and pale Munich differently. I sub 30% pale Munich into a recipe and notice a definite (not imagined) difference in malty character.

[charles1968]

If the difference is hard to tell at nearly 100%, I'm willing to bet money that it can't be detected at 5%.

Problem is I completely disagree with this assertion. So by this logic I should be able to brew an authentic bock or doppelbock with all pils ? No freaking way.


Edit - I realize that dark Munich is more intensely malty. But I guess we clearly perceive pils and pale Munich differently. I sub 30% pale Munich into a recipe and notice a definite (not imagined) difference in malty character.

Dopplebock is mostly Munich. I was referring to recipes with 5% light Munich or Vienna, which is very different.

[charles1968]

Apparently in your imagination. 

Making blanket statements is just foolish.  Will you taste them at 5% in a complex or full flavored recipe?  Unlikely.  Will you taste them in a simple or nuanced recipe?  Most will. 

You should also note, it took 3% more carared, 3% more melanoidin and 0.5% more carafa sp to make the pilsner base beer taste like a Munich base beer.  If Pilsner and Munich tasted the same, then the beer with the extra specialty malts should have stood out. Unless you are suggesting those three malts don't affect flavor either...

Have someone who brews good beer do a smash lager series for you.  100% Pilsner, 100% Vienna, 100% L. Munich and 100% D. Munich.  They all taste different and have their place in brewing for a reason.

No offence intended by the reference to imagination. See pretty much any brulosophy experiment write-up for the effect of bias on perception.

Good point about those speciality malts. Melanoidin makes a big impact at that level. Even so, I think the effect of small Munich/Vienna additions is worth some kind of exbeeriment. Pilsner has lots of malt character  already, so raising it by such a small fraction is, in my opinion, unlikely to have a perceptible effect.

[HoosierBrew]

Problem is I completely disagree with this assertion. So by this logic I should be able to brew an authentic bock or doppelbock with all pils ? No freaking way.


Edit - I realize that dark Munich is more intensely malty. But I guess we clearly perceive pils and pale Munich differently. I sub 30% pale Munich into a recipe and notice a definite (not imagined) difference in malty character.

Dopplebock is mostly Munich. I was referring to recipes with 5% light Munich or Vienna, which is very different.

Ok, maibock then. 100% pils maibock is indistinguishable?  Not trying to argue. I just discern a definite difference that isn't especially subtle to me.

[charles1968]

Ok, maibock then. 100% pils maibock is indistinguishable?  Not trying to argue. I just discern a definite difference that isn't especially subtle to me.

100% pils distinguishable from 30%+ Munich maibock - probably.
100% pils distinguishable from 95% pils + 5% light Munich - no.

[erockrph]

Ok, maibock then. 100% pils maibock is indistinguishable?  Not trying to argue. I just discern a definite difference that isn't especially subtle to me.

100% pils distinguishable from 30%+ Munich maibock - probably.
100% pils distinguishable from 95% pils + 5% light Munich - no.

Where's Marshall when you need him?