[beersk]

Which perhaps it won't since I used my copper chiller.

Oh man, you had it all right until the copper went in....

Well, I used the copper chiller to chill the preboil water too for both mash and sparge and I saw the most hot break ever, seriously gross looking egg drop soup...never had that before in the 8 years I've been brewing. I'm curious as hell to see how this turns out...

That's usually more of a sign of nailing your pH.

Interesting...using bru'n water with RO water over the years, never been like that. It was huge chunks of white protein coagulation in the boil, not just small like white floaties like before.

[blair.streit]

I think it may also be time to get a stainless chiller.

I've been debating it. But I remember one of the brewers here bought and used one recently (homoeccentricus IIRC) after reading the GBF paper and ended up with a pretty sulfury beer or two where he hadn't had that problem before. Seems like a bit of a tradeoff as copper is known to greatly reduce sulfur in beer. Sulfur dissipates but I'd rather not wait on every beer if that proves to be a common thing with SS chillers. Maybe not.

Interesting. It's good to have in small amounts in lagers, but other styles, not so much. But it seems weird that simply switching from copper to stainless would lead to sulfur bombs. Hmmm...

I'll use this as the opportunity for my monthly plug that I still think a large portion of "it" is just higher sulfur, which cuts through malt sweetness and makes otherwise flabby beers really crisp.

I'd love to concoct an appropriate mix of sulfur (mostly sulfur dioxide with a small touch of hydrogen sulfide) and do a side by side of the same beer with one sample being bubbled with the sulfur mix for a while.

I don't doubt that the long-term antioxidant impact of these chemicals could play a significant role as well, but a fair amount of this really feels like a "spicing" issue to me.

[denny]

I'll use this as the opportunity for my monthly plug that I still think a large portion of "it" is just higher sulfur, which cuts through malt sweetness and makes otherwise flabby beers really crisp.

I'd love to concoct an appropriate mix of sulfur (mostly sulfur dioxide with a small touch of hydrogen sulfide) and do a side by side of the same beer with one sample being bubbled with the sulfur mix for a while.

I don't doubt that the long-term antioxidant impact of these chemicals could play a significant role as well, but a fair amount of this really feels like a "spicing" issue to me.

Interesting observation and I've wondered the same thing.  But until someone can tell me what "IT" is, I'm not gonna worry about if I have "IT".  Hell, until that happens, I don't even know if I want "IT"!

[narvin]

I think it may also be time to get a stainless chiller.

I've been debating it. But I remember one of the brewers here bought and used one recently (homoeccentricus IIRC) after reading the GBF paper and ended up with a pretty sulfury beer or two where he hadn't had that problem before. Seems like a bit of a tradeoff as copper is known to greatly reduce sulfur in beer. Sulfur dissipates but I'd rather not wait on every beer if that proves to be a common thing with SS chillers. Maybe not.

Interesting. It's good to have in small amounts in lagers, but other styles, not so much. But it seems weird that simply switching from copper to stainless would lead to sulfur bombs. Hmmm...

I'll use this as the opportunity for my monthly plug that I still think a large portion of "it" is just higher sulfur, which cuts through malt sweetness and makes otherwise flabby beers really crisp.

I'd love to concoct an appropriate mix of sulfur (mostly sulfur dioxide with a small touch of hydrogen sulfide) and do a side by side of the same beer with one sample being bubbled with the sulfur mix for a while.

I don't doubt that the long-term antioxidant impact of these chemicals could play a significant role as well, but a fair amount of this really feels like a "spicing" issue to me.

I also think that's a part of it. 

So, extra metabisulfite creates sulfur dioxide in the wort, and then not using a copper chiller prevents the removal.  Seems plausable!

[beersk]

I'll use this as the opportunity for my monthly plug that I still think a large portion of "it" is just higher sulfur, which cuts through malt sweetness and makes otherwise flabby beers really crisp.

I'd love to concoct an appropriate mix of sulfur (mostly sulfur dioxide with a small touch of hydrogen sulfide) and do a side by side of the same beer with one sample being bubbled with the sulfur mix for a while.

I don't doubt that the long-term antioxidant impact of these chemicals could play a significant role as well, but a fair amount of this really feels like a "spicing" issue to me.

Interesting observation and I've wondered the same thing.  But until someone can tell me what "IT" is, I'm not gonna worry about if I have "IT".  Hell, until that happens, I don't even know if I want "IT"!

It's a lingering malt freshness, Denny. Most German/Czech beers have it as well as some Belgian beers (in my opinion). It's a fresher tasting quality to the malt character. We've been over this!

Interesting observation on the sulfur character... something to consider, I think. I'm not going to be getting rid of my copper chiller just yet though; although I do like the idea of stainless steel, so it's definitely on my radar.

[narcout]

I recommend not ordering it from ibrew.com . I knew ordering from Australia could be dicey due to the distance  - and it is.

Ok, I take back what I said - I got mine in the mail today. Gonna use it in the O-fest I'm brewing in a couple weeks, then on a German Pils. I'll definitely be posting the results.

Mine took 12 days to arrive, which seems pretty good considering.  I just made a few changes to my system and process, so I'm probably going to hold off on experimenting with the Brewtan until I get everything dialed in again.

[narvin]

It's a lingering malt freshness, Denny. Most German/Czech beers have it as well as some Belgian beers (in my opinion). It's a fresher tasting quality to the malt character. We've been over this!

This is interesting because I think Belgian beers also have an IT that it not just due to yeast; however, they routinely have grants, oxidizing mash filters (ancient 100 year old steel plates with cloth in between), and copper everywhere.  And if anything, the modern Belgian breweries that I visited (Bavik, Bush/Trolls) had less of IT. 

So, either a) German IT and Belgian IT are different (and they very well could be)
or b) It's not due to oxidation.

[HoosierBrew]

I recommend not ordering it from ibrew.com . I knew ordering from Australia could be dicey due to the distance  - and it is.

Ok, I take back what I said - I got mine in the mail today. Gonna use it in the O-fest I'm brewing in a couple weeks, then on a German Pils. I'll definitely be posting the results.

Mine took 12 days to arrive, which seems pretty good considering.  I just made a few changes to my system and process, so I'm probably going to hold off on experimenting with the Brewtan until I get everything dialed in again.

Yeah, that's pretty quick. My first order never came, the last one took 3 weeks. Maybe I'll get lucky next time. And I purposely didn't change anything with my procedure when I used it, so hopefully I can assess fairly.

[denny]

It's a lingering malt freshness, Denny. Most German/Czech beers have it as well as some Belgian beers (in my opinion). It's a fresher tasting quality to the malt character. We've been over this!

I get that from beers other than German ones.

[HoosierBrew]

This is interesting because I think Belgian beers also have an IT that it not just due to yeast; however, they routinely have grants, oxidizing mash filters (ancient 100 year old steel plates with cloth in between), and copper everywhere.  And if anything, the modern Belgian breweries that I visited (Bavik, Bush/Trolls) had less of IT. 

So, either a) German IT and Belgian IT are different (and they very well could be)
or b) It's not due to oxidation.

Yeah, that's pretty hard to discount. I'm curious to see what (if any) effect Brewtan has on my beer, but it's hard not to think about breweries that still use old world methods and make outstanding beers.

[narcout]

I could be wrong, but I don't think it was ever stated that the flagship examples of all or most classic styles are/were brewed lodo.
 
Rather, a group of people attempting to re-create at home a particular flavor they tasted in a subset of commercial beers, mostly German lagers, are stating that lodo brewing is the key to achieving it.

Assuming they are right doesn’t mean that the classic Belgian, English, or American styles are commercially brewed lodo or need to be brewed that way in order for homebrewers to replicate them.
 
On the other hand, it doesn’t exclude the possibility that brewing these other styles lodo is worth exploring.

[narvin]

And, I guess sulfur is something that's (mostly) unique to lagers, so I can see where the copper thing would make a difference there.

[HoosierBrew]

I could be wrong, but I don't think it was ever stated that the flagship examples of all or most classic styles are/were brewed lodo.
 
Rather, a group of people attempting to re-create at home a particular flavor they tasted in a subset of commercial beers, mostly German lagers, are stating that lodo brewing is the key to achieving it.

Assuming they are right doesn’t mean that the classic Belgian, English, or American styles are commercially brewed lodo or need to be brewed that way in order for homebrewers to replicate them.
 
On the other hand, it doesn’t exclude the possibility that brewing these other styles lodo is worth exploring.

Agreed.

[Village Taphouse]

I apologize but I didn't have the chance to read through this whole thread.  I got information about brewtan from Denny awhile back and ordered it from iBrew in Australia.  Since I got it, I have made SEVEN batches of beer with it (helles, two pale ales, pilsner, dark lager, blonde ale and an "American Lager").  I have tasted three of the those.  My experience so far is that it has softened my beers and smoothed them out noticeably.  The word "soft" is not descriptive enough.  My pre-brewtan beers seemed to have a bit of harsh sharpness to them and I was constantly trying to use distilled water to dilute, use only calcium chloride instead of gypsum, etc.  These brewtan beers are so soft that I could now see using more sulfate which is new territory for me.  Can anyone tell me what brewtan is doing?  Is it cutting down on oxidation?  Is it bonding with metals in my water to prevent them from contributing flavor to the beer?  There is a HUGE difference in my beers made with brewtan.  The hoppier beers really allow the hops to shine and the malt character is so smooth, clean and clear.  The maltier beers like the helles are just fine but I need to brew those again and bump up the sulfate because these are malt bombs. 

[denny]

I apologize but I didn't have the chance to read through this whole thread.  I got information about brewtan from Denny awhile back and ordered it from iBrew in Australia.  Since I got it, I have made SEVEN batches of beer with it (helles, two pale ales, pilsner, dark lager, blonde ale and an "American Lager").  I have tasted three of the those.  My experience so far is that it has softened my beers and smoothed them out noticeably.  The word "soft" is not descriptive enough.  My pre-brewtan beers seemed to have a bit of harsh sharpness to them and I was constantly trying to use distilled water to dilute, use only calcium chloride instead of gypsum, etc.  These brewtan beers are so soft that I could now see using more sulfate which is new territory for me.  Can anyone tell me what brewtan is doing?  Is it cutting down on oxidation?  Is it bonding with metals in my water to prevent them from contributing flavor to the beer?  There is a HUGE difference in my beers made with brewtan.  The hoppier beers really allow the hops to shine and the malt character is so smooth, clean and clear.  The maltier beers like the helles are just fine but I need to brew those again and bump up the sulfate because these are malt bombs.

Thanks for the report Ken!