Author Topic: Ciders with brett  (Read 2612 times)

Offline goschman

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Ciders with brett
« on: May 20, 2017, 04:02:01 PM »
Both ciders I have made ended up with Brett. It never really came through in the first batch but is very present in my current batch. I am not a Brett guy but the current batch is it bad. Why is this happening? Is it because I am not pasteurizing the juice or maybe it has preservatives? I haven't really researched making ciders. Just threw some stuff in a bucket with yeast and let it do its thing...
On Tap/Bottled: Haze for Daze IPA, G Pils, Maibock, Watermelon Cider         

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Offline Stevie

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Re: Ciders with brett
« Reply #1 on: May 20, 2017, 05:07:28 PM »
Where did you get the juice?

Offline goschman

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Re: Ciders with brett
« Reply #2 on: May 20, 2017, 05:21:30 PM »
Where did you get the juice?

Grocery store. From what I remember it was 100% juice with no preservatives. I think I used different juices for each batch. I suppose both batches could have simply got infected but I have not had that problem with beer.
On Tap/Bottled: Haze for Daze IPA, G Pils, Maibock, Watermelon Cider         

Fermenting: Kolsch
Up Next: Summer Ale, Gose

Offline dmtaylor

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Re: Ciders with brett
« Reply #3 on: May 20, 2017, 10:27:04 PM »
If not pasteurizing, then of course it's extremely likely you've got Brett in there.  I'd say it's turning out just the way that it should.  If you don't like Brett, you need to kill it and pitch your own yeast, plain & simple.
Dave

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Offline Stevie

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Re: Ciders with brett
« Reply #4 on: May 20, 2017, 10:47:35 PM »
Was the juice from the juice aisle or the fridge? If from the juice aisle, you don't need to pasteurize as they are shelf stable for many many months. Campden tablets would be a good idea for cider from the fridge.

Offline goschman

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Re: Ciders with brett
« Reply #5 on: May 21, 2017, 02:41:12 AM »
Was the juice from the juice aisle or the fridge? If from the juice aisle, you don't need to pasteurize as they are shelf stable for many many months. Campden tablets would be a good idea for cider from the fridge.

Good to know. Current batch was from the juice aisle in 2 gallon jugs.
On Tap/Bottled: Haze for Daze IPA, G Pils, Maibock, Watermelon Cider         

Fermenting: Kolsch
Up Next: Summer Ale, Gose

Offline goschman

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Re: Ciders with brett
« Reply #6 on: May 21, 2017, 08:07:45 PM »
Thought I saw somewhere that ciders are prone to infection if you don't follow some particular procedure so thought maybe it had something to do with that. Must be imagining things.
On Tap/Bottled: Haze for Daze IPA, G Pils, Maibock, Watermelon Cider         

Fermenting: Kolsch
Up Next: Summer Ale, Gose

Offline udubdawg

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Re: Ciders with brett
« Reply #7 on: May 22, 2017, 01:42:03 PM »
what kind of Brett character?

Any residual sugar in these ciders?

How's the acid level?  Cider generally does not have a high alcohol level, and if the acidity is also low, as is fairly common with mass-produced juice, they can certainly be prone to infections of various sorts.



Offline goschman

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Re: Ciders with brett
« Reply #8 on: May 22, 2017, 01:48:53 PM »
what kind of Brett character?

Any residual sugar in these ciders?

How's the acid level?  Cider generally does not have a high alcohol level, and if the acidity is also low, as is fairly common with mass-produced juice, they can certainly be prone to infections of various sorts.

I believe the OG was 1.054 and FG was 1.000. I was purposely going for something with higher abv. I backsweetened with a 12 oz can of concentrate. No idea about the acid level...

I am not very familiar with Brett so I would say that its character prominent but not offensive. Has the barnyard/funky thing going on that I always hear about.
On Tap/Bottled: Haze for Daze IPA, G Pils, Maibock, Watermelon Cider         

Fermenting: Kolsch
Up Next: Summer Ale, Gose

Offline dmtaylor

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Re: Ciders with brett
« Reply #9 on: May 22, 2017, 02:29:03 PM »
Brett in cider is funky and dry.  I've made a Brett cider (on purpose) in the past.  It's an acquired taste for sure, which I didn't enjoy at the time but have more recently acquired after sampling a number of Basque ciders (sidras).  The taste reminds me very much of green olives, and tart.  The Brett character is very typical of so-called Basque ciders (from the Basque region of northern Spain), which are aged in old wood casks.  Basque people's appetite seems to be insatiable for it.  I've never yet been there for the "txotx" (pronounced "choach") but it sure looks like a heck of a great time -- look it up everywhere.  If you can get over the funk and try hard to enjoy it, you might find you don't think it's too bad, and maybe even kind of good.

Squirt?  ;)

https://youtu.be/-ws0IDigK_M
Dave

The world will become a much more pleasant place to live when each and every one of us realizes that we are all idiots.

Offline goschman

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Re: Ciders with brett
« Reply #10 on: May 22, 2017, 05:07:57 PM »
Ok well it sounds like I am not missing anything regarding ciders being more prone to infections based on process. I will have to chalk this up to bad sanitation practices coincidentally for the two ciders I have attempted but no problems for beer.
On Tap/Bottled: Haze for Daze IPA, G Pils, Maibock, Watermelon Cider         

Fermenting: Kolsch
Up Next: Summer Ale, Gose

Offline dmtaylor

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Re: Ciders with brett
« Reply #11 on: May 22, 2017, 09:46:30 PM »
Yes, cider is very infection prone actually.  I've had three batches turn into vinegar, had a couple of dumpers.  It's more prone to infection than beer is for sure.  But, when it's good, it's REAL good, like, even if you don't know what you're doing it's REAL good anyway... when it's good.  :)
Dave

The world will become a much more pleasant place to live when each and every one of us realizes that we are all idiots.

Offline udubdawg

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Re: Ciders with brett
« Reply #12 on: May 23, 2017, 01:43:29 PM »
Cider can certainly be prone to infection.  Some microbes target sugar, others malic acid, etc.

You can sulfite your fermentation but the amount necessary is highly dependent on pH.
If this is happening in primary then you've got a sanitation problem if that is the juice you're using.  With store bought mass produced juice you will be unlikely to have the things necessary in the juice that produce spicy/smoky phenolics when interacting with lactobacillus strains, so I do agree it sounds more like brett than unintended malolactic fermentation.

If this is happening after fermentation is complete then acidifying and sulfiting may help you.

if I'm making a fairly "boring" one-note cider with plain juice then I would increase acidity and alcohol level.  Make it more of a borderline applewine.  Higher alcohol will help protect it.  Usually this involves adding white sugar but if I've got a low sugar juice then my preference is actually to slightly freeze concentrate it. I target 1.058 and above for everything I make.  1.065 is preferable.

Offline goschman

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Re: Ciders with brett
« Reply #13 on: May 23, 2017, 01:53:16 PM »
Cider can certainly be prone to infection.  Some microbes target sugar, others malic acid, etc.

You can sulfite your fermentation but the amount necessary is highly dependent on pH.
If this is happening in primary then you've got a sanitation problem if that is the juice you're using.  With store bought mass produced juice you will be unlikely to have the things necessary in the juice that produce spicy/smoky phenolics when interacting with lactobacillus strains, so I do agree it sounds more like brett than unintended malolactic fermentation.

If this is happening after fermentation is complete then acidifying and sulfiting may help you.

if I'm making a fairly "boring" one-note cider with plain juice then I would increase acidity and alcohol level.  Make it more of a borderline applewine.  Higher alcohol will help protect it.  Usually this involves adding white sugar but if I've got a low sugar juice then my preference is actually to slightly freeze concentrate it. I target 1.058 and above for everything I make.  1.065 is preferable.

Thanks for all the info.

Doing something above 7.2% ABV which is where this ended up is not really something I want. At the time of pitching yeast; fruit puree and agave nectar was added. It was fermented with K97 I believe and dry hopped a week before kegging. I noticed the pellicle about a month in the primary when transferring off the yeast and  the pellicle reformed in the secondary. I have acquired a taste for the finished product however it ended up different than I hoped.

I will look into acidifying and sulfiting as I have no idea what that entails...
On Tap/Bottled: Haze for Daze IPA, G Pils, Maibock, Watermelon Cider         

Fermenting: Kolsch
Up Next: Summer Ale, Gose

Offline dmtaylor

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Re: Ciders with brett
« Reply #14 on: May 23, 2017, 03:28:40 PM »
Sulfite is just Campden, added at 1 Camden tablet per gallon a couple days before you pitch your yeast.  The Campden/sulfite kills off the nasty wild yeasts and bacteria, and while it does hurt beer yeast and wine yeast a bit (caused them to generate more sulfur), the effects fade enough after a couple days that with a healthy pitch they're able to survive it and be the only critter in your cider.

Now, if you're dry hopping or adding other things later in the fermentation, you might want to sanitize with alcohol or more sulfite to prevent any critters from grabbing hold from that point on too.
Dave

The world will become a much more pleasant place to live when each and every one of us realizes that we are all idiots.