[jrdatta]

My new MO (for the time being with my known strains, i.e. 1214 and 3787) is as follows:

1.) 1.25 M/ml/°P, 5-7 minutes aquarium pump aeration.

That pitch rate seems pretty high, almost bordering on lager territory. For dry you might need to cut it back a smidge from what I have read/heard from user experience for the dry Belgian strains.  As always take with a grain of salt and whatnot.

[Big Monk]

My new MO (for the time being with my known strains, i.e. 1214 and 3787) is as follows:

1.) 1.25 M/ml/°P, 5-7 minutes aquarium pump aeration.

That pitch rate seems pretty high, almost bordering on lager territory. For dry you might need to cut it back a smidge from what I have read/heard from user experience for the dry Belgian strains.  As always take with a grain of salt and whatnot.

Notice the aeration though. That will only get me ~ 8 ppm DO after pitching.

There was a section from BLAM by Pizza Port's Tomme Arthur where he talks about their method for fermentation:



I sent an email to Tomme asking advice and he replied with some kind words and encouragement based on what I described. So far it's been working great.

That's is of course per my usual method and liquid yeast. I'll need to experiment with this strain. It may work out and may not. I'm always pulling for a good dry strain.

[jrdatta]

Huh.  Fair enough.

[jrdatta]

Though I thought there was somewhere I saw that dry has a reserve of oxygen or something of that nature which is why you can get good results with very little oxygenation using dry yeast.  There are even some saying not to oxygenate at all when using dry yeast.  Looking forward to what your findings are!

[denny]

Though I thought there was somewhere I saw that dry has a reserve of oxygen or something of that nature which is why you can get good results with very little oxygenation using dry yeast.  There are even some saying not to oxygenate at all when using dry yeast.  Looking forward to what your findings are!

Reserve of nutrients, not oxygen.  The purpose of oxygen it to help keep cell walls flexible and encourage cell growth.  The thinking is that dry yeast has so many cells that it's not necessary to get cell growth.  Whether or not that's the case, I don't know.  I do know that for the dry yeasts I use I don't aerate/oxygenate and have had no prblems becasue of it.

[jrdatta]

Reserve of nutrients, not oxygen.  The purpose of oxygen it to help keep cell walls flexible and encourage cell growth.  The thinking is that dry yeast has so many cells that it's not necessary to get cell growth.  Whether or not that's the case, I don't know.  I do know that for the dry yeasts I use I don't aerate/oxygenate and have had no prblems becasue of it.
[/quote]

Ahhhhhh, gotcha. My bad there.

[narcout]

Though I thought there was somewhere I saw that dry has a reserve of oxygen or something of that nature which is why you can get good results with very little oxygenation using dry yeast.

Dry yeast is propagated in such a way that they already have sufficient lipids for 3 to 4 growth cycles without additional aeration.

I used to have the link to a Lallemand Q&A page where Dr. Clayton Clone states this, but it doesn't seem to work anymore.

What was your experience, in detail, please?

Did you underpitch and treat the yeast like crap on purpose like I'm gonna do?

There was a lot of sulphur (both during fermentation and in the finished beer), though it dissipated in time.  There was also a strange flavor that I would describe as almond-like.  It wasn't terrible, just not what I was going for in a Belgian Pale. I just don't have the time or desire to experiment with it further.

I did not underpitch or do anything else out of the ordinary.

I'd be interested to taste a beer that someone else brewed with it.  Maybe I can find one at HBC.

[Big Monk]

I received a response back from Lallemand to my inquiry. After introducing myself and a bit of my process, I had two focused questions for them, both of which are shown below with responses in red:

1.) Is there any information, which you consider non-proprietary, about the provenance of this yeast? It would be nice to compare it to something else in order to know how to adjust my fermentation profile for similar results to my usual strains. (Note: Earlier in the inquiry I stated my normal yeast choices are 1214/3787)

Our Abbaye strain was originally sourced from one of the Trappist monastery breweries in Belgium and is comparable to WLP500/WY1214, giving the stone fruit/estery notes at higher gravity and fermentation temps, and more "earthy" notes at lower temps. Personally, I find it really comes into it's own on Darker styles, but is suitable for [all] the classic Belgian styles.

2.) I have read the [technical specifications] sheet and was wondering if you could provide a more definite cell count per gram than what is posted [there]. There seems to be a great gap between what some "experts" quote on cell counts versus what the yeast companies are quoting. I understand that the producer must not over-estimate cell counts, but some of the high estimates I've seen floating around are as high as 20 x 10⁹ cells/gram. That seems crazy to me so i have always estimated [between] 10-12 x 10⁹ cells per gram. Any insights on this?

These high cell counts of 20 x 10⁹ cells per gram are coming from the wine industry. For most of our wine strains, the [technical specifications] are > 20 x 10⁹ cells per gram. The cells of brewing yeast are usually larger than wine yeast cells so fewer cells per gram [are expected], but most of the wine yeast also have higher viability. Beer yeast usually have 5-10 x 10⁹ cells per gram. Abbaye [has] more like 5-7 x 10⁹ cells per gram.

Needless to say, i'll DEFINITELY be trying it out.

[dmtaylor]

I dare you to split a batch, and with the control batch, pitch the amount you're sure that you should, and with the other half, use 1/4 to 1/2 as much yeast, no aeration, no rehydration, just sprinkle on top.  Then compare results.  That's what I'm gonna do.

[Big Monk]

I dare you to split a batch, and with the control batch, pitch the amount you're sure that you should, and with the other half, use 1/4 to 1/2 as much yeast, no aeration, no rehydration, just sprinkle on top.  Then compare results.  That's what I'm gonna do.

I'd expect nothing less!

[narcout]

Beer yeast usually have 5-10 x 10⁹ cells per gram. Abbaye [has] more like 5-7 x 10⁹ cells per gram.[/b][/color]

I wonder why this is so at odds with what people who have done cell counts report.

It occurs to me that it's going to be difficult to control yeast growth by restricting oxygen, though only for the first generation.

[Big Monk]

Beer yeast usually have 5-10 x 10⁹ cells per gram. Abbaye [has] more like 5-7 x 10⁹ cells per gram.[/b][/color]

I wonder why this is so at odds with what people who have done cell counts report.

It occurs to me that it's going to be difficult to control yeast growth by restricting oxygen, though only for the first generation.

You could overpitch. Again, I'm coming at this from an experimental/trial and error approach so I'll have to play with it.

I was pleasantly surprised that it has Monastic provenance though. That's a damn good sign, I'd say. Whether it performs like it's "wet" brethren remains to be seen...

[skyler]

Since many Belgian styles tend to be higher gravity, perhaps a simple test of one packet for an ordinary-strength dubbel or tripel would be sufficient to test "underpitching." I'll get around toi trying that, one of these days.

[Big Monk]

I got a reply back from Lallemand about my second inquiry and they confirmed that most (if not all) of their brewing yeast has between 5-10E9 cells/gram. That number is quoted for rehydrated yeast.

That translates to a starting count of 10E9 cells/gram and a guaranteed count of 5E9 cells/gram at the best by date.

Running the numbers with a starting count of 10E9 cells/gram shows the yeast reaching minimum count in 36 months at 2% p/month viability loss and 18 months assuming 4% p/month viability loss.

The Abbaye is reported by Lallemand as 5-7E9 cells/gram.

[stpug]

I got a reply back from Lallemand about my second inquiry and they confirmed that most (if not all) of their brewing yeast has between 5-10E9 cells/gram. That number is quoted for rehydrated yeast.

That translates to a starting count of 10E9 cells/gram and a guaranteed count of 5E9 cells/gram at the best by date.

Running the numbers with a starting count of 10E9 cells/gram shows the yeast reaching minimum count in 36 months at 2% p/month viability loss and 18 months assuming 4% p/month viability loss.

The Abbaye is reported by Lallemand as 5-7E9 cells/gram.

So they are saying that their 11gram sachets have 55-110 billion cells per sachet when properly rehydrated.  Abbaye will have 55-77 billion cells per sachet, rehydrated.  Correct?