[zwiller]

I still think they are playing "worst case scenario" here.  Not sure if I posted but the yeast that converted me to dry was WB06.  It is an excellent expressive hefe yeast although it is not the classic banana clove strain so I have some confidence that a belgian dry yeast would perform similar.  That said, the users in the pro brewing forum seem to indicate Abbaye might be Rochefort...  Maybe after counting someone can do DNA?   

[Big Monk]

I got a reply back from Lallemand about my second inquiry and they confirmed that most (if not all) of their brewing yeast has between 5-10E9 cells/gram. That number is quoted for rehydrated yeast.

That translates to a starting count of 10E9 cells/gram and a guaranteed count of 5E9 cells/gram at the best by date.

Running the numbers with a starting count of 10E9 cells/gram shows the yeast reaching minimum count in 36 months at 2% p/month viability loss and 18 months assuming 4% p/month viability loss.

The Abbaye is reported by Lallemand as 5-7E9 cells/gram.

So they are saying that their 11gram sachets have 55-110 billion cells per sachet when properly rehydrated.  Abbaye will have 55-77 billion cells per sachet, rehydrated.  Correct?

That's correct. I'm aware of Sean Terrill's viability count writeup and I'm not trying to poo poo stuff like that, but that's one data point. Also, the JZ anecdotes about cell counts, etc. have no references.

For me, I'm going to trust the manufacturer under the assumption that they wouldn't just give 10 x 10e9 cells away if they didn't have to.

[Big Monk]

I still think they are playing "worst case scenario" here.  Not sure if I posted but the yeast that converted me to dry was WB06.  It is an excellent expressive hefe yeast although it is not the classic banana clove strain so I have some confidence that a belgian dry yeast would perform similar.  That said, the users in the pro brewing forum seem to indicate Abbaye might be Rochefort...  Maybe after counting someone can do DNA?   

Lallemand says it compare to Chimay and the flavor wheel they provide seems to support that.

[zwiller]

I still think they are playing "worst case scenario" here.  Not sure if I posted but the yeast that converted me to dry was WB06.  It is an excellent expressive hefe yeast although it is not the classic banana clove strain so I have some confidence that a belgian dry yeast would perform similar.  That said, the users in the pro brewing forum seem to indicate Abbaye might be Rochefort...  Maybe after counting someone can do DNA?   

Lallemand says it compare to Chimay and the flavor wheel they provide seems to support that.

I don't think we could ask for a better judge than you for this and interested in your findings. 

[stpug]

I got a reply back from Lallemand about my second inquiry and they confirmed that most (if not all) of their brewing yeast has between 5-10E9 cells/gram. That number is quoted for rehydrated yeast.

That translates to a starting count of 10E9 cells/gram and a guaranteed count of 5E9 cells/gram at the best by date.

Running the numbers with a starting count of 10E9 cells/gram shows the yeast reaching minimum count in 36 months at 2% p/month viability loss and 18 months assuming 4% p/month viability loss.

The Abbaye is reported by Lallemand as 5-7E9 cells/gram.

So they are saying that their 11gram sachets have 55-110 billion cells per sachet when properly rehydrated.  Abbaye will have 55-77 billion cells per sachet, rehydrated.  Correct?

That's correct. I'm aware of Sean Terrill's viability count writeup and I'm not trying to poo poo stuff like that, but that's one data point. Also, the JZ anecdotes about cell counts, etc. have no references.

For me, I'm going to trust the manufacturer under the assumption that they wouldn't just give 10 x 10e9 cells away if they didn't have to.

Thanks for confirming those numbers.  Many homebrewers are familiar with billions of cells needed for 5 gallons, versus e^? values/gr, so I was mostly trying to put those numbers in layman's terms

As for cell counts in dry sachets, I've known that for years.  It's pretty easy to know when you RTFM .

Another cell counting data point from a few years ago.  I remember Steve posting this back then and he took some flack for it because folks didn't like that his counts didn't match the wishful thinking.  Oh well....

http://www.woodlandbrew.com/2013/01/how-many-cells-are-in-package.html

[The Beerery]

I got a reply back from Lallemand about my second inquiry and they confirmed that most (if not all) of their brewing yeast has between 5-10E9 cells/gram. That number is quoted for rehydrated yeast.

That translates to a starting count of 10E9 cells/gram and a guaranteed count of 5E9 cells/gram at the best by date.

Running the numbers with a starting count of 10E9 cells/gram shows the yeast reaching minimum count in 36 months at 2% p/month viability loss and 18 months assuming 4% p/month viability loss.

The Abbaye is reported by Lallemand as 5-7E9 cells/gram.

So they are saying that their 11gram sachets have 55-110 billion cells per sachet when properly rehydrated.  Abbaye will have 55-77 billion cells per sachet, rehydrated.  Correct?

That's correct. I'm aware of Sean Terrill's viability count writeup and I'm not trying to poo poo stuff like that, but that's one data point. Also, the JZ anecdotes about cell counts, etc. have no references.

For me, I'm going to trust the manufacturer under the assumption that they wouldn't just give 10 x 10e9 cells away if they didn't have to.

Thanks for confirming those numbers.  Many homebrewers are familiar with billions of cells needed for 5 gallons, versus e^? values/gr, so I was mostly trying to put those numbers in layman's terms

As for cell counts in dry sachets, I've known that for years.  It's pretty easy to know when you RTFM .

Another cell counting data point from a few years ago.  I remember Steve posting this back then and he took some flack for it because folks didn't like that his counts didn't match the wishful thinking.  Oh well....

http://www.woodlandbrew.com/2013/01/how-many-cells-are-in-package.html

FWIW, I never believed in that dogma either. If I pitch dry yeast on an moderate gravity ale I chose to either rehydrate with 1 pack or sprinkle with 2 packs. This meets my expectations of activity within 6 hours and a healthy fermentation.  Usually these days I chose to sprinkle since I get my packs for just over $1.50.

[Big Monk]

A quick update:

Per the recommendations from Lallemand R&D, I pitch a single packet, rehydrated, into the 17.5 °Bx wort I brewed yesterday.

I pitched at around 68 °F and the temperature stabilized to 64 °F within 2 hours. I had activity less than 6 hours later.


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[Big Monk]

Ok, so a quick update:

Beer was just bottled at 8 °Bx. FFT showed 7 °Bx for 87% AA.

Temperature peaked at 69 °F and started at 64 °F so this can serve as the "low range" test for temperature. All in all, 3 days to Spund, another day or so to finish, and I'll crack one on Sunday.


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[69franx]

Thats pretty darn quick Derek. Make sure to let us know how well the carb level turns out

[Big Monk]

Thats pretty darn quick Derek. Make sure to let us know how well the carb level turns out

My Dubbel ("2 Monks") was carbed perfectly and grain to glass in 9 days. By Day 12 the second bottle I cracked was fantastic. I aimed for 2.5 on that one. It was perfectly carbonated.

[69franx]

Nice, glad its working out. Did you have to bottle at some crazy hour to hit the brix correctly?

[Big Monk]

Nice, glad its working out. Did you have to bottle at some crazy hour to hit the brix correctly?

When I got home today, FFT was at 7 °Bx. I bottled at 8 °Bx when the kids went down and was done in 10 minutes.

[69franx]

Yes, spur of the moment bottling would be a sticking point for me and 5-6 gallon batches, I know you are doing significantly less, so no problem

[chumley]

Late to the thread, not really relevant, but anecdotal and about dry Belgian yeasts.....

My local brew shop in a Montana town is actually just a wing of an Ace Hardware store, so there.

Their yeast and hops selection isn't much.  I have been using the Belle Saison yeast and have not been overly impressed with it.  Too peppery, some medicinal, no fruity esters.  I have been using it in 1.045 to 1.070 beers mainly.

I brewed a 1.055 blond in April, same result.  Drinkable, but no wow factor. Then I brewed a 1.080 tripel, split it with the WLP trappist blend and the Belle Saison yeast cake.  Wow!  Really nice beer.  Fruitiness dominates over spiciness. 

Just my two cents worth.

[Big Monk]

Late to the thread, not really relevant, but anecdotal and about dry Belgian yeasts.....

My local brew shop in a Montana town is actually just a wing of an Ace Hardware store, so there.

Their yeast and hops selection isn't much.  I have been using the Belle Saison yeast and have not been overly impressed with it.  Too peppery, some medicinal, no fruity esters.  I have been using it in 1.045 to 1.070 beers mainly.

I brewed a 1.055 blond in April, same result.  Drinkable, but no wow factor. Then I brewed a 1.080 tripel, split it with the WLP trappist blend and the Belle Saison yeast cake.  Wow!  Really nice beer.  Fruitiness dominates over spiciness. 

Just my two cents worth.

Lallemand is purported to be comparable to WLP500 and WY1214.