Author Topic: Quest for the Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe  (Read 4197 times)

Offline Brewtopalonian

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Quest for the Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe
« on: February 08, 2018, 02:12:59 AM »
Alright guys, it is my great pleasure to finally be able to contribute positively to this forum.  I'm going to share with you the best Weizen I've ever had / created.  This is NOT an American Hefeweizen, rather a TRADITIONAL Weizen.  I've found that the most important parts of this recipe are not necessarily the ingredients, but more so the process by which you brew it.  My take:


Ultimate Traditional Weizen:
OG: 1.048
FG: 1.010
Batch Size: 5.75 Gal
ABV: 5%
Carb: 2.9 vols
Color: 3.2 SRM
IBU: 12.6

Water profile:
pH: 8
Calcium: 250ppm
Magnesium: 25ppm
Sodium: 70ppm
Sulfate: 100ppm
Chloride: 280ppm
Bicarbonate: 550pp



Water profile from Bru'n Water (Martin Brungard):

Vienna (boiled)

Calcium: 27ppm
Magnesium: 15ppm
Sodium: 10ppm
Sulfate: 60ppm
Chloride: 15ppm
Bicarbonate: 80ppm

Recipe: 5.25gal, 76% BHEfficiancy

Malts:

4.75lbs Wheat Malt (German) (2.0 SRM)
2.75lbs Pilsner (2 Row, German, 2.0 SRM)
1lb Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM)
1lb Vienna Malt (3.5 SRM)

Hops:
1oz Hallertauer Hersbrucker [3.8%AA] - 90 60 min

Yeast:

WLP300 (1L starter at 1.035sg for 24 hours)

- Utilize a step mash with an acid rest at 109-113*F for 15 minutes (do NOT add acid prior to this step, optimal pH should be 5.8-6.0 for this step!) to promote clove like flavors and then add your phosphoric Lactic acid if necessary (typically not necessary if you match the water profile) to achieve 5.2-5.6pH prior to the normal protein rest at 122*F for 20 mins, this step gives your Weizen great head retention (especially with unrefined grains found in Germany/Belgium), then raise temp for Sacchrification Rest at 149*F, then finally Mash out at 168*F for 10 mins
- Boil heavily for 90 mionutes to combat DMS.
   - Boil 60 minutes
- Hefe should be hazy, no need for finnings.
- No late addition hops. Maintain bitterness around 10 IBU's to balance bitter with fruit/clove esters and bread malty flavors.
- Ferment between 62-65*F to promote proper yeast attenuation and correct clove/banana flavors.

Fermentation Notes:

Hefe Yeast (WLP 300) is VERY sensitive to temperature change.  Recommend pitching and fermenting at 62*F +/- 1*, then allowing the temp to rise to 64*F over the course of 3 days and hold for two weeks.  This prevents a banana bomb that characterizes American Hefe's.  This being a traditional German Weizen, you want a balance between clove and banana flavor which is achieved primarily through fermentation temperature.

Hope you all enjoy!  Let me know if you make this one with similar results!

Notes about the Edits:

This post was originally titled "Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out", though after some reflection, I believe I still have much to learn and, as such, have changed the title to "Quest for the Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe" to better capture what has truly occurred here.  I originally had a ridiculous water profile that was harder than granite - something that I really have no idea why it was so.  I have since purchased an RO unit and have building water profiles from scratch using Bru'n Water.  I acted childishly and foolishly and have since apologized to those I may have upset or offended.  I'm not deleting those comments, because I believe that in keeping with ethos, it is important to point out my shortcomings and not disrupt the great advice given by others.  I hope this thread continues on for eternity as we all grow and learn more and more about this particular style (it's a tricky one to be sure!).  Happy Brewing, I look forward to seeing what you come up with!

« Last Edit: June 12, 2018, 06:25:06 PM by Brewtopalonian »
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Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
« Reply #1 on: February 10, 2018, 08:46:33 PM »
There's V ienna malt listed in the recipe but not an amount. Looks good to me except for maybe the cara-pils.

Offline Brewtopalonian

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Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
« Reply #2 on: February 10, 2018, 08:53:18 PM »
Ah, yes, must have missed that,thanks!
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Offline KellerBrauer

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Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2018, 01:04:00 PM »
Greetings Brewtopalonian - I’m new to this forum, but would like to say that I have in the past failed miserably at making a good Hefe.  I have never been able to achieve that wonderful banana and clove characteristic that a Weizen is known for.  I have read on more than one occasion that, as you mentioned, it’s the process more than the ingredients.  In any case, my many attempts at this style have all crashed and burned.

I was planning on attempting another Hefe in March (after a two year hiatus from brewing Hefes) so your recipe and procedure comes at a great time.  I’ll let you know how it turns out.  Thanks for sharing!
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Offline Brewtopalonian

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Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2018, 03:03:16 PM »
Awesome, glad to hear it! This is hands down the most tricky beer to get right because of a complicated mash and finicky yeast.  Let me know how it turns out!
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Offline erockrph

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Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2018, 03:16:15 PM »
Is there a reason you're using such a high Sulfate level? I don't like 280 ppm in my IPA's; I can't imagine that much in a hefe.
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Offline Brewtopalonian

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Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2018, 03:26:24 PM »
Woah!!! Thanks for pointing that out!!! I inverted the numbers when I typed this up!  Should be 100ppm Sulfate and 280ppm Chloride!
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Offline Robert

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Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2018, 03:36:34 PM »
Brewtopalonian, I'm not about to try this, but if you think your mash is complicated (but effective) here's how the Germans do it:  Mash in HALF the mash at 144°F and after 40 min bring to 158°F to fully gelatinize. Immediately cool to 113°F by addition of the other, cold, half of the mash.  The cold portion contains maltase, which is temperature sensitive and denatured in the normal mash;  it can go to work on the fully gelatinized and partially degraded mash to produce glucose, which is what gives you the banana aroma. After 40 min, raise the whole to 158°F for conversion and then mash off.  (They omit protein rests because, as Germans, they use no unmalted grain and protein rests on malt kill the foam.) Glucose is only about 10% of normal wort sugars, but this process brings it to 40%.  Your process is obviously taking advantage of maltase at 113°F but this process gives it even more available material to work on.  Supposed to increase isoamyl acetate (banana) by up to 120% and reduce acetaldhyde by 40%.  If you're really Hefeweizen-obsessed, this may be something you'd care to try.  You, not me!
Rob
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Offline Brewtopalonian

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Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2018, 03:43:31 PM »
Haha thanks Robert!  I've found significantly similar information to what you've provided through my research.  I found that my process works well given my set up.  Iat try the even more traditional method some day just to say I did it.  I really don't favor a heavy Banana flavor in my beer.  I know that having SOME is characteristic in traditional Weizens, but, it is more common to have heavier clove flavors with subtle banana flavors in traditional Weizens.  That's why I don't go for that flavor in the malting process and again keep the fermentation temp low to prevent too much of it coming out during fermentation.
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Offline Robert

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Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2018, 03:47:56 PM »
Yeah, it sounded like you'd definitively customuzed/optimized your process; but if you didn't know about the other method, it also sounded like you might be the only guy around who might even try it!
Rob
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Offline Brewtopalonian

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Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2018, 03:52:02 PM »
Hahahaha that's definitely true.  I'm not a hefe fanatic tbh.  My wife is though.... So.... Happy wife, happy life.  And it gives me the leverage I need to buy more brewing equipment 😉
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Offline mabrungard

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Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2018, 03:57:45 PM »
Wow! Having sent a Hefewiezen to the NHC second round in years past, I have to say this differs quite a bit from weizen brewing concepts that I've developed.

First, the water profile is fairly mineralized and is far more mineralized than I expect for the style. Hefe is not a style that benefits or needs that much mineralization. The sulfate level is crazy high for this style. (I see that the OP corrected this in the post)  As an example of what German brewers use, the water across almost all of Bavaria has fairly low mineralization, especially when pre-boiled.

Second, the use of phosphoric acid is actually counterproductive to the flavor profile for this style. Lactic is an asset in the style. However, the bicarbonate level in that water would make it almost impossible to employ lactic acid alone. The lactic twang would be pronounced. Yet another reason that the water recommendations are iffy.

The recommendation to keep mash pH higher during the ferrulic rest is sound. That does improve the ferrulic acid production and subsequent clovey 4VG. 

Third, the relatively minor pils content is no where near high enough to make a 90 min boil necessary to avoid DMS. Since going to 60 min boils for my high pils content beers, I can attest that DMS reduction does not require a hard or long boil when you're at an elevation of less than 1000 ft. All the long and hard boil does is darken and damage the wort. Hefe can be a short-lived beer and excessive boiling doesn't help.

I do agree that a low ferment temp is required to avoid creating a banana bomb.  Having judged hundreds of hefeweizens in competition, excessive banana is a real turn off. However, I do feel that a hint of banana and vanilla is appropriate in a great hefe. I aim for 63F, close enough.

While I appreciate the OP's contribution, I'm worried that an anonymous submission with surprisingly uncharacteristic parameters might actually be a trolling exercise. I look forward to the OP posting their name so that we can verify that you've won gold in a NHC or MCAB event.


PS: decoction helps reduce DMS in beers by accelerating the conversion of SMM to DMS. DMS is easily removed from any wort with a gentle, open, 30 min boil When dealing with pils malt, its the conversion from SMM to DMS that takes extra boil time. Under 1000 ft, 30 + 30 min is sufficient in my experience.
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Offline Brewtopalonian

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Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
« Reply #12 on: February 11, 2018, 04:13:53 PM »
^ Pretentious asshat alert...  Good for you for winning a medal... I'm a home Brewer dude.  Don't be a dick.  I created this recipe in hopes of saving someone else the intense amount of time in research I did.  BTW I live at an elevation of 4500 ft. So I do need to boil for extended periods, thanks though.  Also, now that you've got me all riled up, I have concluded that you are in fact the troll here.  Way to be a dickhead. Keep winning medals no one cares about but you.
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Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
« Reply #13 on: February 11, 2018, 04:21:35 PM »
^ Pretentious asshat alert...  Good for you for winning a medal... I'm a home Brewer dude.  Don't be a dick.  I created this recipe in hopes of saving someone else the intense amount of time in research I did.  BTW I live at an elevation of 4500 ft. So I do need to boil for extended periods, thanks though.  Also, now that you've got me all riled up, I have concluded that you are in fact the troll here.  Way to be a dickhead. Keep winning medals no one cares about but you.

Wow!

Good thing I didn't post my thoughts on how you were way off.....
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Offline Brewtopalonian

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Re: Ultimate Traditional Weizen Recipe - I finally figured it out
« Reply #14 on: February 11, 2018, 04:24:24 PM »
Wow, you can all f##k off then.  This is why I don't post on forums.  Silly me, thinking this is supposed to be a community to help each other out, and here you asshats are trying to tear me apart for being proud of a beer I made. f##k off.
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