[reverseapachemaster]

I am pretty much open to any ingredient added to a beer if there is a credible argument that it produces a quality beer even if it is a beer I have no interest in drinking. The problem I have with a lot of the craft beer market right now is that it isn't about making a quality beer as much as putting something together that will sell rapidly and get clicks on Instagram. It is not even chasing trends in brewing, which has always been part of craft beer, but chasing trends in marketing.

[santoch]

I agree with ethinson that there is a resurgence of craft lagers up here in the PacNW.  Since lagers from breweries like Chuckanut, and pFriem raised the bar and they started gaining traction, newer breweries like Chainline, Airways, Bosk, and 4 Generals have been following suit and the results have been outstanding.

[boulderbrewer]

Great Thread, as one of those craft brewers I hear it all the time in the tap house, What's new? Do you make this or that? It is easy to get sucked in to making the latest fad beer trying to have something new, Brut IPA anyone? I have resisted for the most part, I do make a NE session IPA(it's call a pale ale folks!), kettle sours and barrel aged, but most of our offerings are straight forward. However my best sellers are flavored wheat beers so go figure.

[BrewBama]

Great Thread, as one of those craft brewers I hear it all the time in the tap house, What's new? Do you make this or that? It is easy to get sucked in to making the latest fad beer trying to have something new, Brut IPA anyone? I have resisted for the most part, I do make a NE session IPA(it's call a pale ale folks!), kettle sours and barrel aged, but most of our offerings are straight forward. However my best sellers are flavored wheat beers so go figure.

My DIL loves watermelon wheat. I bought some of that syrup with a pump to add to taste once. I found out it’s not for me. ...but then again I barely like wheat beer.


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[joe_meadmaker]

I hear it all the time in the tap house, What's new? Do you make this or that?

There does seem to be a mindset for some people that they always need a new/different beer.  Don't get me wrong, I really enjoy trying new beers.  And if I'm out at the bar having a couple, I rarely drink the same beer twice in a row.  I have friends who always want something new.  But unfortunately the primary objective doesn't seem to be about finding a beer that's good, it's about adding another entry to their Untapped profile.

[BrewBama]

...  But unfortunately the primary objective doesn't seem to be about finding a beer that's good, it's about adding another entry to their Untapped profile.

Reminds me of my grandkids looking for Pokémon.


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[thcipriani]

I remember when I started brewing, people used to tell me that the beer I liked wasn't beer (i.e., an IPA isn't a beer because it isn't a macro lager, clearly).

Now NEIPA isn't real beer. Or glitter beer isn't real beer. "Beer" == "beer I like" isn't what got me into homebrewing. That's gatekeeping and it repels people from the hobby.

[ethinson]

Supply and Demand:  if there is a customer that’s willing to fund the bizarre flavors the brewer’s who bring them to market will continue. Offering a product without a customer base doesn’t last long in a market based economy. With so much good beer available today, bad beer won’t last long.

The breweries around here run booming businesses. I have never been to one for lunch or dinner without a nice healthy crowd of paying customers. I have no doubt it’s a direct connection to the mere coincidence that there are never guacamole, buffalo chicken dip, glitter, birthday cake, Twinkie, or other bizarro offerings on tap. Fruit, sugars, barrel aged, etc laced base beers  are offered I am sure because they sell well enough to keep them in production.

It’s all dollars and sense. 


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You're right, but I think that's part of the "problem" (depending on how you look at it).  Most of the really crazy s*** like throwing whole sheet cakes in the tun is very small volume that's driven by the Instagram/Untappd/Ratebeer world of camp out/mules/trades/one day releases/one case per person per day etc etc.  You only have to sell the beer once. It's not like Sierra Nevada Pale Ale that has to be solid time after time after time.

I have to assume some of the really bizzarro stuff, like Rogue's Beard Yeast beer never actually get opened and drank. People buy it for novelty and it sits on a shelf.  Like the brewery in Denver that makes beer with bull testicle? (Although, I hear rumors people actually drink that and it's good).

As always there will be those who love it and those who bash it... to each their own.. YMMV.

[Phil_M]

I remember when I started brewing, people used to tell me that the beer I liked wasn't beer (i.e., an IPA isn't a beer because it isn't a macro lager, clearly).

Now NEIPA isn't real beer. Or glitter beer isn't real beer. "Beer" == "beer I like" isn't what got me into homebrewing. That's gatekeeping and it repels people from the hobby.

So a Mike's Hard Raspberry is beer then too, right?

I think over time it will fade, just like dannyjed said above.  Beer flavored beer is starting to make a comeback here in the PacNW.  Craft lagers are all the rage, everyone is releasing a new pilsner or a helles or even craft versions of american adjunct lager.  Some probably motivated to make a clean, solid, low alcohol beer, some to directly fight against macro beer. Deschutes new "Dashootz" lager fits this bill. 99 calories, 4.0%, going right after the Mich Ultra crowd. It's priced similar to domestic lagers and it's sold in single cans (16 or 24) and 6-packs. Sierra Nevada's All Day IPA kinda fits this mold too.. low ABV "sessionable" sold in single cans for C-store grabbing.

I don't mind a stout with chocolate or a stout with coffee (or recently, pale ales with coffee) but I do draw the line at throwing sheet cakes into the tun.. that's ridiculous.

I second your opinion on some adjuncts being OK, but agree there needs to be a line. And sours aren't evil either...it's just I've never had a craft sour that didn't taste like cheap sour candy...which goes back to the craft beer is becoming sh!it beer thing...just look at freaking Belgium, hell once upon the time they were what we strived for.

Hey, "beer flavored beer" is my catch phrase!  Unfortunately, virtually all of the "craft lagers" I've encountered so far have done exactly what has been suggested above would happen:  laid bare the brewers' profound lack of mastery of the most fundamental aspects of their trade, and their lack of sound stylistic judgment.  And yet they shamelessly release them.  There's still an unserved market.

Ding Ding Ding! We have a winner!

The only craft brewery that's within a reasonable distance of me is known for their award-winning "Helles" and "Festbier".

Both are always sweet, oxidized messes. I can possibly forgive the Fest, as they seem to have been going for an old-style recipe, but Helles needs to be low O₂ almost by definition.

Aside from the rare fresh Sierra Nevada lager, no craft brewery that I've ever tried has made even a marginal lager. They've all sucked. As in, the County-default 10oz Bud is a decidedly better choice.

[Joe T]

I remember when I started brewing, people used to tell me that the beer I liked wasn't beer (i.e., an IPA isn't a beer because it isn't a macro lager, clearly).

Now NEIPA isn't real beer. Or glitter beer isn't real beer. "Beer" == "beer I like" isn't what got me into homebrewing. That's gatekeeping and it repels people from the hobby.

"Gatekeeping" says it all. I wonder why people would put so much energy into controlling a cultural activity that doesn't actually hurt anyone? The majority here seem to agree that the laws of economics will prevail. What's the point of allocating so much life energy to hating something?

[Robert]

A couple of points.  First, the main thrust of this topic is not aimed at the hobby.   As hobbyists, we can and do brew anything we like, especially things we can't find commercially.   That's at the heart of it. Second, gatekeeping can take different forms, and can be used to thwart the market forces mentioned.  The demand of a majority of consumers can be subordinated to the interests of a minority, and more importantly distributors and third party influencers, who have found it possible to profit in the short term from maintaining constant publicity and frenzy for novelty among a few consumers, some of whom are not even, as has been mentioned, particularly interested in the product, just the associated circuses.   Producers themselves are often frustrated by being unable to produce products either they want to make or their majority -- potentially growth -- market desire, as they are obliged to cater to marketers rather than markets.  There's been much discussion in recent years of the imbalance of power in the 3 tier system and between it and consumers.   This is another aspect.

[Bilsch]

People will always want something new and different when their current selection is crappy.

[denny]

I remember when I started brewing, people used to tell me that the beer I liked wasn't beer (i.e., an IPA isn't a beer because it isn't a macro lager, clearly).

Now NEIPA isn't real beer. Or glitter beer isn't real beer. "Beer" == "beer I like" isn't what got me into homebrewing. That's gatekeeping and it repels people from the hobby.

So a Mike's Hard Raspberry is beer then too, right?

I think over time it will fade, just like dannyjed said above.  Beer flavored beer is starting to make a comeback here in the PacNW.  Craft lagers are all the rage, everyone is releasing a new pilsner or a helles or even craft versions of american adjunct lager.  Some probably motivated to make a clean, solid, low alcohol beer, some to directly fight against macro beer. Deschutes new "Dashootz" lager fits this bill. 99 calories, 4.0%, going right after the Mich Ultra crowd. It's priced similar to domestic lagers and it's sold in single cans (16 or 24) and 6-packs. Sierra Nevada's All Day IPA kinda fits this mold too.. low ABV "sessionable" sold in single cans for C-store grabbing.

I don't mind a stout with chocolate or a stout with coffee (or recently, pale ales with coffee) but I do draw the line at throwing sheet cakes into the tun.. that's ridiculous.

I second your opinion on some adjuncts being OK, but agree there needs to be a line. And sours aren't evil either...it's just I've never had a craft sour that didn't taste like cheap sour candy...which goes back to the craft beer is becoming sh!it beer thing...just look at freaking Belgium, hell once upon the time they were what we strived for.

Hey, "beer flavored beer" is my catch phrase!  Unfortunately, virtually all of the "craft lagers" I've encountered so far have done exactly what has been suggested above would happen:  laid bare the brewers' profound lack of mastery of the most fundamental aspects of their trade, and their lack of sound stylistic judgment.  And yet they shamelessly release them.  There's still an unserved market.

Ding Ding Ding! We have a winner!

The only craft brewery that's within a reasonable distance of me is known for their award-winning "Helles" and "Festbier".

Both are always sweet, oxidized messes. I can possibly forgive the Fest, as they seem to have been going for an old-style recipe, but Helles needs to be low O₂ almost by definition.

Aside from the rare fresh Sierra Nevada lager, no craft brewery that I've ever tried has made even a marginal lager. They've all sucked. As in, the County-default 10oz Bud is a decidedly better choice.

Ever had Trumer pils?  Pfriem pils?  Amazing beers.

[ethinson]

A couple of points.  First, the main thrust of this topic is not aimed at the hobby.   As hobbyists, we can and do brew anything we like, especially things we can't find commercially.   That's at the heart of it. Second, gatekeeping can take different forms, and can be used to thwart the market forces mentioned.  The demand of a majority of consumers can be subordinated to the interests of a minority, and more importantly distributors and third party influencers, who have found it possible to profit in the short term from maintaining constant publicity and frenzy for novelty among a few consumers, some of whom are not even, as has been mentioned, particularly interested in the product, just the associated circuses.   Producers themselves are often frustrated by being unable to produce products either they want to make or their majority -- potentially growth -- market desire, as they are obliged to cater to marketers rather than markets.  There's been much discussion in recent years of the imbalance of power in the 3 tier system and between it and consumers.   This is another aspect.

This is the flip side of the wild and crazy stuff is the monotone.  Not too long ago craft was making beer the macros didn't like Amber Ales, Blond Ales, Pale Ales, Stouts and IPAs...

It's pretty common now (especially in the PacNW) to walk into a brewery tap room that has 1 blonde ale, 1 lager, 1 stout and 15 IPAs... A lot of brewers might want to make a good lager, or a belgian or a saison but the customers want IPA.

It's a damned if ya do damned if ya don't kinda thing sometimes...

[Robert]

I remember when I started brewing, people used to tell me that the beer I liked wasn't beer (i.e., an IPA isn't a beer because it isn't a macro lager, clearly).

Now NEIPA isn't real beer. Or glitter beer isn't real beer. "Beer" == "beer I like" isn't what got me into homebrewing. That's gatekeeping and it repels people from the hobby.

So a Mike's Hard Raspberry is beer then too, right?

I think over time it will fade, just like dannyjed said above.  Beer flavored beer is starting to make a comeback here in the PacNW.  Craft lagers are all the rage, everyone is releasing a new pilsner or a helles or even craft versions of american adjunct lager.  Some probably motivated to make a clean, solid, low alcohol beer, some to directly fight against macro beer. Deschutes new "Dashootz" lager fits this bill. 99 calories, 4.0%, going right after the Mich Ultra crowd. It's priced similar to domestic lagers and it's sold in single cans (16 or 24) and 6-packs. Sierra Nevada's All Day IPA kinda fits this mold too.. low ABV "sessionable" sold in single cans for C-store grabbing.

I don't mind a stout with chocolate or a stout with coffee (or recently, pale ales with coffee) but I do draw the line at throwing sheet cakes into the tun.. that's ridiculous.

I second your opinion on some adjuncts being OK, but agree there needs to be a line. And sours aren't evil either...it's just I've never had a craft sour that didn't taste like cheap sour candy...which goes back to the craft beer is becoming sh!it beer thing...just look at freaking Belgium, hell once upon the time they were what we strived for.

Hey, "beer flavored beer" is my catch phrase!  Unfortunately, virtually all of the "craft lagers" I've encountered so far have done exactly what has been suggested above would happen:  laid bare the brewers' profound lack of mastery of the most fundamental aspects of their trade, and their lack of sound stylistic judgment.  And yet they shamelessly release them.  There's still an unserved market.

Ding Ding Ding! We have a winner!

The only craft brewery that's within a reasonable distance of me is known for their award-winning "Helles" and "Festbier".

Both are always sweet, oxidized messes. I can possibly forgive the Fest, as they seem to have been going for an old-style recipe, but Helles needs to be low O₂ almost by definition.

Aside from the rare fresh Sierra Nevada lager, no craft brewery that I've ever tried has made even a marginal lager. They've all sucked. As in, the County-default 10oz Bud is a decidedly better choice.

Ever had Trumer pils?  Pfriem pils?  Amazing beers.

I thought Trumer was an Austrian macro with a plant in the Bay Area, not sure I'd count it.  Only seen it once, in a green bottle, on a warm shelf, a year old... just like if it had come from Austria. I'd do better buying a Beck's.  Likewise while I consider Yuengling's Pilsner to be a great beer, that's an old line, regional lager brewer that has been awkwardly shoehorned into the craft ranks by the BA.  Heard nothing  but good things about Pfriem, but can't get it.  Funny, but it sounds like if there's a lager revival, it's going to start on the West Coast, right where the original revolt against macro lagers started.