Author Topic: This has gone far enough!  (Read 4106 times)

Offline denny

  • Administrator
  • Retired with too much time on my hands
  • *****
  • Posts: 20975
  • Noti OR [1991.4, 287.6deg] AR
    • Dennybrew
Re: This has gone far enough!
« Reply #45 on: June 14, 2019, 06:23:15 PM »
I remember when I started brewing, people used to tell me that the beer I liked wasn't beer (i.e., an IPA isn't a beer because it isn't a macro lager, clearly).

Now NEIPA isn't real beer. Or glitter beer isn't real beer. "Beer" == "beer I like" isn't what got me into homebrewing. That's gatekeeping and it repels people from the hobby.

So a Mike's Hard Raspberry is beer then too, right?

I think over time it will fade, just like dannyjed said above.  Beer flavored beer is starting to make a comeback here in the PacNW.  Craft lagers are all the rage, everyone is releasing a new pilsner or a helles or even craft versions of american adjunct lager.  Some probably motivated to make a clean, solid, low alcohol beer, some to directly fight against macro beer. Deschutes new "Dashootz" lager fits this bill. 99 calories, 4.0%, going right after the Mich Ultra crowd. It's priced similar to domestic lagers and it's sold in single cans (16 or 24) and 6-packs. Sierra Nevada's All Day IPA kinda fits this mold too.. low ABV "sessionable" sold in single cans for C-store grabbing.

I don't mind a stout with chocolate or a stout with coffee (or recently, pale ales with coffee) but I do draw the line at throwing sheet cakes into the tun.. that's ridiculous.

I second your opinion on some adjuncts being OK, but agree there needs to be a line. And sours aren't evil either...it's just I've never had a craft sour that didn't taste like cheap sour candy...which goes back to the craft beer is becoming sh!it beer thing...just look at freaking Belgium, hell once upon the time they were what we strived for.

Hey, "beer flavored beer" is my catch phrase!  Unfortunately, virtually all of the "craft lagers" I've encountered so far have done exactly what has been suggested above would happen:  laid bare the brewers' profound lack of mastery of the most fundamental aspects of their trade, and their lack of sound stylistic judgment.  And yet they shamelessly release them.  There's still an unserved market.

Ding Ding Ding! We have a winner!

The only craft brewery that's within a reasonable distance of me is known for their award-winning "Helles" and "Festbier".

Both are always sweet, oxidized messes. I can possibly forgive the Fest, as they seem to have been going for an old-style recipe, but Helles needs to be low O2 almost by definition.

Aside from the rare fresh Sierra Nevada lager, no craft brewery that I've ever tried has made even a marginal lager. They've all sucked. As in, the County-default 10oz Bud is a decidedly better choice.

Ever had Trumer pils?  Pfriem pils?  Amazing beers.
I thought Trumer was an Austrian macro with a plant in the Bay Area, not sure I'd count it.  Only seen it once, in a green bottle, on a warm shelf, a year old... just like if it had come from Austria. I'd do better buying a Beck's.  Likewise while I consider Yuengling's Pilsner to be a great beer, that's an old line, regional lager brewer that has been awkwardly shoehorned into the craft ranks by the BA.  Heard nothing  but good things about Pfriem, but can't get it.  Funny, but it sounds like if there's a lager revival, it's going to start on the West Coast, right where the original revolt against macro lagers started.

Shame that you can't get Trumer in good shape.   Amazing beer.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

Offline denny

  • Administrator
  • Retired with too much time on my hands
  • *****
  • Posts: 20975
  • Noti OR [1991.4, 287.6deg] AR
    • Dennybrew
Re: This has gone far enough!
« Reply #46 on: June 14, 2019, 06:24:35 PM »
A couple of points.  First, the main thrust of this topic is not aimed at the hobby.   As hobbyists, we can and do brew anything we like, especially things we can't find commercially.   That's at the heart of it. Second, gatekeeping can take different forms, and can be used to thwart the market forces mentioned.  The demand of a majority of consumers can be subordinated to the interests of a minority, and more importantly distributors and third party influencers, who have found it possible to profit in the short term from maintaining constant publicity and frenzy for novelty among a few consumers, some of whom are not even, as has been mentioned, particularly interested in the product, just the associated circuses.   Producers themselves are often frustrated by being unable to produce products either they want to make or their majority -- potentially growth -- market desire, as they are obliged to cater to marketers rather than markets.  There's been much discussion in recent years of the imbalance of power in the 3 tier system and between it and consumers.   This is another aspect.

This is the flip side of the wild and crazy stuff is the monotone.  Not too long ago craft was making beer the macros didn't like Amber Ales, Blond Ales, Pale Ales, Stouts and IPAs...

It's pretty common now (especially in the PacNW) to walk into a brewery tap room that has 1 blonde ale, 1 lager, 1 stout and 15 IPAs... A lot of brewers might want to make a good lager, or a belgian or a saison but the customers want IPA.

It's a damned if ya do damned if ya don't kinda thing sometimes...

Sounds like you need to get to Eugene.  Can't think of a single place here that's like that.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

Offline Bilsch

  • Assistant Brewer
  • ***
  • Posts: 111
Re: This has gone far enough!
« Reply #47 on: June 14, 2019, 10:33:46 PM »
Funny, but it sounds like if there's a lager revival, it's going to start on the West Coast, right where the original revolt against macro lagers started.

I'm betting somewhere in the midwest.. somewhere with more Germans.

Offline thcipriani

  • Assistant Brewer
  • ***
  • Posts: 191
Re: This has gone far enough!
« Reply #48 on: June 14, 2019, 11:08:25 PM »
I remember when I started brewing, people used to tell me that the beer I liked wasn't beer (i.e., an IPA isn't a beer because it isn't a macro lager, clearly).

Now NEIPA isn't real beer. Or glitter beer isn't real beer. "Beer" == "beer I like" isn't what got me into homebrewing. That's gatekeeping and it repels people from the hobby.

So a Mike's Hard Raspberry is beer then too, right?

It's funny -- not in a "haha" way, mind you -- that the AHA pays so much lip-service to the idea that homebrewing is an inclusive hobby. Sometimes I'm dumb enough to buy into it. In fact, there's even a "diversity subcommittee" of the AHA governing committee. That committee is supposed to, "provide the AHA with ideas and advice to create a more diverse membership, inclusive community,  and enhance member benefits for everyone".

Here's a pro-tip: telling people the beer they like isn't Real Beer™, ain't a great way to create an inclusive f##king community.

Maybe, actually, it's the opposite of that. In fact, maybe there are folks who -- even after having been a member for over a decade -- like, say, me -- are cringing really hard at how embarrassing this discussion is and this forum has become.

I really used to think this forum had technically superior information to other homebrewing forums. That hasn't been true for a long while -- most of the technical discussion is centered around Dogma or tilting at windmills, IMO. What this forum has become, however, is amazingly adept at shutting down descending viewpoints with minimal fuss and an "aw shucks" attitude. You all don't listen to those who you don't already agree with and you do it with flair.

Kudos, enjoy your Real Beer™ :)
Tyler Cipriani
Longmont, CO
http://gangsta.party/

Offline Phil_M

  • Senior Brewmaster
  • ******
  • Posts: 1760
  • Southern Maryland
Re: This has gone far enough!
« Reply #49 on: June 14, 2019, 11:46:35 PM »
I'm sorry, but there is a point where a fermented malt beverage is no longer beer. Mike's hard being an example. There's a craft brewery that says "malt beverage" rather than beer on the label, was/is it Dominion?

And if drinking malt beverage is your thing, fine. I don't care. I really don't.

Also, far as I can tell, this place IS inclusive. Plenty of posts about mead, wine, sake, etc...why not admit that malt beverages are a part of that? Let's just call them that, that's all I'm asking.

But from what I can tell, craft beer has bought into the Macro race to the bottom. Sickly sweet, gets you buzzed fast, mass market appeal...vs. being true to beer, which is how all this started.

Meanwhile, I just want fresh beer.

Oh, and Denny, I forgot one: Yuengling Golden Pils is an excellent craft lager, I had forgotten that one. Sadly now that it's not new it isn't as popular...and it's harder to find fresh. Still an easier task than most craft beers though.
Corn is a fine adjunct in beer.

And don't buy stale beer.

Offline reverseapachemaster

  • Official Poobah of No Life.
  • *
  • Posts: 3304
    • Brain Sparging on Brewing
Re: This has gone far enough!
« Reply #50 on: June 18, 2019, 03:50:25 AM »
It's funny -- not in a "haha" way, mind you -- that the AHA pays so much lip-service to the idea that homebrewing is an inclusive hobby. Sometimes I'm dumb enough to buy into it. In fact, there's even a "diversity subcommittee" of the AHA governing committee. That committee is supposed to, "provide the AHA with ideas and advice to create a more diverse membership, inclusive community,  and enhance member benefits for everyone".

Here's a pro-tip: telling people the beer they like isn't Real Beer™, ain't a great way to create an inclusive f##king community.

Maybe, actually, it's the opposite of that. In fact, maybe there are folks who -- even after having been a member for over a decade -- like, say, me -- are cringing really hard at how embarrassing this discussion is and this forum has become.

I really used to think this forum had technically superior information to other homebrewing forums. That hasn't been true for a long while -- most of the technical discussion is centered around Dogma or tilting at windmills, IMO. What this forum has become, however, is amazingly adept at shutting down descending viewpoints with minimal fuss and an "aw shucks" attitude. You all don't listen to those who you don't already agree with and you do it with flair.

Kudos, enjoy your Real Beer™ :)

I'll take people talking about why they don't enjoy particular trends in brewing over people rolling in to drop ad hominem attacks and declining to support their position in any other way.

This post is the same kind of demeaning self-aggrandizement for which you complain.
Heck yeah I blog about homebrewing: Brain Sparging on Brewing

Offline thcipriani

  • Assistant Brewer
  • ***
  • Posts: 191
Re: This has gone far enough!
« Reply #51 on: June 18, 2019, 06:22:16 PM »
It's funny -- not in a "haha" way, mind you -- that the AHA pays so much lip-service to the idea that homebrewing is an inclusive hobby. Sometimes I'm dumb enough to buy into it. In fact, there's even a "diversity subcommittee" of the AHA governing committee. That committee is supposed to, "provide the AHA with ideas and advice to create a more diverse membership, inclusive community,  and enhance member benefits for everyone".

Here's a pro-tip: telling people the beer they like isn't Real Beer™, ain't a great way to create an inclusive f##king community.

Maybe, actually, it's the opposite of that. In fact, maybe there are folks who -- even after having been a member for over a decade -- like, say, me -- are cringing really hard at how embarrassing this discussion is and this forum has become.

I really used to think this forum had technically superior information to other homebrewing forums. That hasn't been true for a long while -- most of the technical discussion is centered around Dogma or tilting at windmills, IMO. What this forum has become, however, is amazingly adept at shutting down descending viewpoints with minimal fuss and an "aw shucks" attitude. You all don't listen to those who you don't already agree with and you do it with flair.

Kudos, enjoy your Real Beer™ :)

I'll take people talking about why they don't enjoy particular trends in brewing over people rolling in to drop ad hominem attacks and declining to support their position in any other way.

This post is the same kind of demeaning self-aggrandizement for which you complain.

This post was not meant to be self-aggrandizing.

If you found my post demeaning -- know that that wasn't my intent.

You characterize this discussion as being about particular trends in brewing. I disagree.

This discussion started by asserting that certain trendy beers should not be allowed to call themselves "beer" -- which is already different than your characterization. This topic then devolved into: NEIPA is bad, glitter is some kind of line in the sand/being marketed at children (read: you must be a child if you like it).

For f##k sake someone brought up participation trophies being bad for your character.

Rhetoric matters. The tone of this discussion was inflammatory. This discussion was about what's allowed to call itself beer and implicitly who's allowed to call themselves a brewer in this forum.

You're completely right: I am not taking a side in that argument. It's not because I'm not participating, it's because my knee-jerk reaction was not to participate because the discussion was so ugly.
Tyler Cipriani
Longmont, CO
http://gangsta.party/

Offline denny

  • Administrator
  • Retired with too much time on my hands
  • *****
  • Posts: 20975
  • Noti OR [1991.4, 287.6deg] AR
    • Dennybrew
Re: This has gone far enough!
« Reply #52 on: June 18, 2019, 07:04:08 PM »
I think some people take beer WAY too seriously....
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

Offline Joe T

  • Assistant Brewer
  • ***
  • Posts: 172
Re: This has gone far enough!
« Reply #53 on: June 18, 2019, 07:12:40 PM »
Hear hear

Offline thcipriani

  • Assistant Brewer
  • ***
  • Posts: 191
Re: This has gone far enough!
« Reply #54 on: June 18, 2019, 08:04:45 PM »
What this forum has become, however, is amazingly adept at shutting down descending viewpoints with minimal fuss and an "aw shucks" attitude.

e.g.,

I think some people take beer WAY too seriously....

I think the hobby is killing itself and taking craft brew with it and I think this thread is a microcosm of the larger trends causing that.
Tyler Cipriani
Longmont, CO
http://gangsta.party/

Offline denny

  • Administrator
  • Retired with too much time on my hands
  • *****
  • Posts: 20975
  • Noti OR [1991.4, 287.6deg] AR
    • Dennybrew
Re: This has gone far enough!
« Reply #55 on: June 18, 2019, 09:09:06 PM »
What this forum has become, however, is amazingly adept at shutting down descending viewpoints with minimal fuss and an "aw shucks" attitude.

e.g.,

I think some people take beer WAY too seriously....

I think the hobby is killing itself and taking craft brew with it and I think this thread is a microcosm of the larger trends causing that.

Thank you for demonstrating my point.
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

Offline thcipriani

  • Assistant Brewer
  • ***
  • Posts: 191
Re: This has gone far enough!
« Reply #56 on: June 18, 2019, 09:46:06 PM »
What this forum has become, however, is amazingly adept at shutting down descending viewpoints with minimal fuss and an "aw shucks" attitude.

e.g.,

I think some people take beer WAY too seriously....

I think the hobby is killing itself and taking craft brew with it and I think this thread is a microcosm of the larger trends causing that.

Thank you for demonstrating my point.

* thcipriani doffs cap
Tyler Cipriani
Longmont, CO
http://gangsta.party/

Offline BrewBama

  • I spend way too much time on the AHA forum
  • ********
  • Posts: 2653
Re: This has gone far enough!
« Reply #57 on: June 18, 2019, 10:15:36 PM »
This is fitting right in with my personal resurgence in simplification using Josh Weikert’s Beer Simple principle: “...return to the essential simplicity and joy of beer and brewing.”


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
“From man’s sweat and God’s love, beer came into the world.” — St. Arnold

Brewed in the Tennessee Valley. Rocket City — Huntsville AL

Offline denny

  • Administrator
  • Retired with too much time on my hands
  • *****
  • Posts: 20975
  • Noti OR [1991.4, 287.6deg] AR
    • Dennybrew
Re: This has gone far enough!
« Reply #58 on: June 18, 2019, 10:22:42 PM »
This is fitting right in with my personal resurgence in simplification using Josh Weikert’s Beer Simple principle: “...return to the essential simplicity and joy of beer and brewing.”


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I know a couple guys who just published a book about that....

"The best beer possible, with the least effort possible, while having the most fun possible". 
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com

The best, sharpest, funniest, weirdest and most knowledgable minds in home brewing contribute on the AHA forum. - Alewyfe

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

Offline BrewBama

  • I spend way too much time on the AHA forum
  • ********
  • Posts: 2653
Re: This has gone far enough!
« Reply #59 on: June 18, 2019, 10:31:27 PM »
This is fitting right in with my personal resurgence in simplification using Josh Weikert’s Beer Simple principle: “...return to the essential simplicity and joy of beer and brewing.”


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I know a couple guys who just published a book about that....

"The best beer possible, with the least effort possible, while having the most fun possible".

Absolutely.  Drew’s On the Ones idea, Palmer’s styles formula using base + four character malts in How to Brew, Josh’s Beer Simple, Zainasheff’s “by the sack method” in commercial breweries all reinforce this idea. I am aligning more and more to these ideas.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
“From man’s sweat and God’s love, beer came into the world.” — St. Arnold

Brewed in the Tennessee Valley. Rocket City — Huntsville AL