Author Topic: Kolsh: Why use a particular hop?  (Read 3366 times)

Offline charlie

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Kolsh: Why use a particular hop?
« on: December 06, 2019, 01:27:54 AM »
My GF is a long time Coors Regular drinker, but I introduced her to Kolsh courtesy of Karbach Love Street, and she really liked it. So on Sept 15 I made 10 gal of Kolsh for her, and she sucked it down in 3 weeks and wanted more. And on Nov 17 I made another batch which she is currently working on.

This Kolsh recipe calls for 25 IBU of Hallertau hops at 60 minutes. There are no other hops in the recipe. Here comes the question:

Hallertau is described as a "mellow spicy hop with great flavor with citrus tones", but we all know that the flavor/aroma oils will steam distill out of the boil in 10 minutes or less. When we pitch Hallertau at 60 minutes then by 50 minutes "BLAM", all gone! So why use Hallertau? Why not Magnum or some other cheap high alpha hop?

Please enlighten me,
Charlie
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Offline blatz

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Re: Kolsh: Why use a particular hop?
« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2019, 01:32:47 AM »
Because it’s a BS homebrewer lore/belief that all flavor and aroma is boiled off. 

I make a lot of beers with only one hop addition and I can definitely taste and smell it and no doubt could make distinct.


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Offline charlie

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Re: Kolsh: Why use a particular hop?
« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2019, 01:40:14 AM »
Because it’s a BS homebrewer lore/belief that all flavor and aroma is boiled off.

I was trying to be polite, but I guess it didn't work.
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Offline Robert

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Re: Kolsh: Why use a particular hop?
« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2019, 01:43:02 AM »


Coors Regular

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Offline blatz

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Re: Kolsh: Why use a particular hop?
« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2019, 01:57:20 AM »
Because it’s a BS homebrewer lore/belief that all flavor and aroma is boiled off.

I was trying to be polite, but I guess it didn't work.

Sorry you took it that way.  I said that tongue in cheek. I mean Bitburger has only one addition and it has plenty of aroma and flavor.

In my experience with German styles you can definitely tell a difference with single hop additions early in the boil.  Maybe other people can’t. 

Make it with magnum next time and if you can’t tell a difference then stick with that.  To me it makes a difference.


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Offline Robert

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Re: Kolsh: Why use a particular hop?
« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2019, 01:57:42 AM »
Seriously,  blatz may be right.   It has long been understood that wort/beer retains the flavor and aroma of hops no matter when they are added. FWH is only one case.  German beers today most often use only a single addition at around 50 minutes, and retain plenty of hop character.  Traditionally, with longer boils, there may have been multiple additions, but none later than 60 minutes.  Continental and British brewers have generally opined that late additions do nothing for aroma -- oils do not have sufficient time to become solubilized in the wort -- and are inefficient for bittering, while "bittering" hops with coarser flavor will taint the finished beer.  (DeClerck had a piece to say about this.)  Anyone may dispute these views, perhaps correctly, but if you want to know why German brewers use aromatic hops in the way they do, that is the root of it .  It also jibes with my experience.  I usually use only one addition, and get more "late" character than I do with actual late additions.  No doubt many variables in equipment and processes will lead to variable mileage.
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Offline dmtaylor

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Re: Kolsh: Why use a particular hop?
« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2019, 12:05:33 PM »
Because it’s a BS homebrewer lore/belief that all flavor and aroma is boiled off.

I was trying to be polite, but I guess it didn't work.

But he's right though!  I was going to say pretty much the same thing.  Hallertau gives a LOT of flavor and aroma even when added at the beginning of the boil.  It is simply the most noble of all noble hops.  It truly is THAT good.  Try it and you'll see.
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Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: Kolsh: Why use a particular hop?
« Reply #7 on: December 06, 2019, 06:55:01 PM »
Seriously,  blatz may be right.   It has long been understood that wort/beer retains the flavor and aroma of hops no matter when they are added. FWH is only one case.  German beers today most often use only a single addition at around 50 minutes, and retain plenty of hop character.  Traditionally, with longer boils, there may have been multiple additions, but none later than 60 minutes.  Continental and British brewers have generally opined that late additions do nothing for aroma -- oils do not have sufficient time to become solubilized in the wort -- and are inefficient for bittering, while "bittering" hops with coarser flavor will taint the finished beer.  (DeClerck had a piece to say about this.)  Anyone may dispute these views, perhaps correctly, but if you want to know why German brewers use aromatic hops in the way they do, that is the root of it .  It also jibes with my experience.  I usually use only one addition, and get more "late" character than I do with actual late additions.  No doubt many variables in equipment and processes will lead to variable mileage.

If you would say only one addition for some styles, like Heffeweißen, I might agree. As stated, I can't agree. I have seen a small Bavarian brewer put the aroma hops in with 15 minutes left in the boil. Small addition by American standards but it was done.

You can look at some German recipes in the Steve Holler presentation in the link. Some have 1 addition for some, up to 5 for Schönramer Pils.
https://www.homebrewcon.org/past-presentations/2008-presentations/


That brings me to a discussion about Noble Hops. They are low Alpha Acid, relatively low oil, but high in polyphenols from the bracts. There are flavors associated with the polyphenols. When YCH introduced the Cryo hops, Brewers said something was missing, it was the flavors from the polyphenols. Then they made the American Noble products which is made from the leftover green material.

Denny and Drew have brewed with American Noble hops. I haven't tasted their beers, but I did taste a series of beers Annie Johnson brewed while at YCH Hop and Brew School. I liked the Loral beer the best, as Loral was the most like it's German Noble cousins.

PU has always been said to use 3 additions. This article is a little old, I can ask Annie, if you want, what they did when she was there to brew.

https://www.morebeer.com/articles/Pilsner_Urquell
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Offline charlie

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Re: Kolsh: Why use a particular hop?
« Reply #8 on: December 07, 2019, 12:14:03 AM »
That brings me to a discussion about Noble Hops. They are low Alpha Acid, relatively low oil, but high in polyphenols from the bracts. There are flavors associated with the polyphenols.

Now that makes sense! Polyphenols are huge molecules that would not steam distill.

OK. I'll buy that explanation. Hallertau it is.

Charlie
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Offline Robert

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Re: Kolsh: Why use a particular hop?
« Reply #9 on: December 07, 2019, 04:35:04 AM »
When YCH introduced the Cryo hops, Brewers said something was missing, it was the flavors from the polyphenols. Then they made the American Noble products which is made from the leftover green material.



Long before that, Miller did an enormous amount of research (the kind of thing only the biggest brewers can afford) and established the basis of understanding the flavor and aroma contributions of the green material in hops (and received a number of patents.)  They found that their beers made only with extracts providing bitterness and the familiar hydrocarbons were severely lacking in hop character, particularly "kettle hop" flavor and aroma  -- just what you get from a relatively large proportion of low alpha hops added early in the boil.  They identified glycosides as the missing elements, and developed methods for reintroducing these flavors into their products. (Just using whole noble hops would be too obvious it seems.)  These glycosides can be bound with phenols and terpenes, can be initially flavorless but release these hoppy flavors and aromas at various stages, right up to in the drinker's mouth,  and also can have important effects on foam.  Substituting a small amount of high alpha hops as a kettle addition rather than a larger amount of low alpha hops will have a similar effect as the problem they initially had with their extracts, and was rediscovered with Cryo Hops.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2019, 04:43:52 AM by Robert »
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Offline ynotbrusum

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Re: Kolsh: Why use a particular hop?
« Reply #10 on: December 07, 2019, 12:38:03 PM »
Now that explains it - after years of tweaking I have settled on FWH with Magnum and knockout addition of Hallertauer or similar lower alpha hop as the combination I favor in most of my pale lagers.
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Offline charlie

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Re: Kolsh: Why use a particular hop?
« Reply #11 on: December 19, 2019, 02:34:53 AM »
I used Magnum for bittering for years, but quit because everything was coming up celery flavored!. In retrospect I think it was the Green Belt yeast more than the Magnum hops that was causing that.

I've been furiously using last year's hop purchase to get rid of it (and I have got 3 lbs to go!). This year's purchase will be Magnum, Centennial and Hallertau. That's it!

Charlie
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Offline majorvices

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Re: Kolsh: Why use a particular hop?
« Reply #12 on: December 19, 2019, 04:31:59 PM »
I use magnum for bittering my kölsch and it has won many awards. Try it and see how you like it.

Offline charlie

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Re: Kolsh: Why use a particular hop?
« Reply #13 on: December 20, 2019, 02:53:03 AM »
I use magnum for bittering my kölsch and it has won many awards. Try it and see how you like it.

I'm a tweaker, so I expect I'll end up doing that just to see what happens. Thanks.

Charlie
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Offline hopfenundmalz

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Re: Kolsh: Why use a particular hop?
« Reply #14 on: December 20, 2019, 02:34:01 PM »
I use magnum for bittering my kölsch and it has won many awards. Try it and see how you like it.
US or German? I find US to have a little more aroma.
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