[Iliff Ave]

There are a lot of sound methods to make good beer. It does sound like you are trying to say that your way is better though...

The old subtle brag disguised as a discussion trick. Not gonna fall for that one...

Huh? Sounds cool. Good to see you guys back.

[Big Monk]

This is not a brag at all. Right now I am being attacked by someone on another forum for my methods. And I find that ridiculous.

I was just joking around. Good for you that you have it worked out.

So I will defend my methods and try to share what I have learned over the course of 30 years of brewing....

You posted on hotly contested topic that has been discussed for so long that no one really engages on it anymore. I'm sure the info is appreciated.

[Die Beerery]

I have never experienced it in 30 years time.

Oxidation occurs no matter what.  You can slow it but you can't stop it.  You've become accustom to the level of oxidation that your process produces in your beers.  If you're really interested obtain a DO meter and quantify it.

If a secondary fermenter enables you do to what you want then use it, even if you're just storing uncarbonated beer in it.

Can you link to the discussions where these "snobs" said you would get low quality beer by using a secondary?

And yet you can provide no proof of the level of oxidation that I am experiencing or that it in fact is negatively affecting my beer. Proof still matters if you are going to claim something. Just saying....

Oxidation does infact negatively effect the beer, in all sorts of ways. Antioxoidants, ROS, Collodial stability, LOX, Trans-2-N, just to name a small few.
What someone can't quantitate is ones preference, and also confirmation bias.
At the end of the day you prefer what you prefer, but as much as folks want to believe it, homebrewers do not get a pass in the rules of science that everyone else needs to follow.

[HabeasCorpus]

I have never experienced it in 30 years time.

Oxidation occurs no matter what.  You can slow it but you can't stop it.  You've become accustom to the level of oxidation that your process produces in your beers.  If you're really interested obtain a DO meter and quantify it.

If a secondary fermenter enables you do to what you want then use it, even if you're just storing uncarbonated beer in it.

Can you link to the discussions where these "snobs" said you would get low quality beer by using a secondary?

And yet you can provide no proof of the level of oxidation that I am experiencing or that it in fact is negatively affecting my beer. Proof still matters if you are going to claim something. Just saying....

Scientific fact:

Oxidation occurs no matter what.  You can slow it but you can't stop it.

My claim:

You've become accustom to the level of oxidation that your process produces in your beers.

So I suggest that you measure your process and report back the DO level and all of this sets you off and makes you angry?

Please, set aside the alcohol and get some counseling.

[coonmanxdog]

I think that my whole point here is that people tend to jump to conclusions not based on any evidence but on perceived risks. And I don't do that. I go by what works for me.

My apartment is a long ways away from a perfect brewing environment yet I still get some good batches. If I listened to all of the people talking about this risk or that risk I would probably just quit brewing because I would be afraid to do anything at all. There has to be a balance somewhere. I simply get tired of the "I don't do a secondary because of the risks of infection or oxidation" comments because I feel that when done properly those risks become almost non-existent. It's a different story if you feel that secondary is simply not necessary at all. I get that. But for me it is necessary so I do it in a way that works and does not introduce oxidation or infection. And I am confident with that process. Just saying....

[Big Monk]

I have never experienced it in 30 years time.

Oxidation occurs no matter what.  You can slow it but you can't stop it.  You've become accustom to the level of oxidation that your process produces in your beers.  If you're really interested obtain a DO meter and quantify it.

If a secondary fermenter enables you do to what you want then use it, even if you're just storing uncarbonated beer in it.

Can you link to the discussions where these "snobs" said you would get low quality beer by using a secondary?

And yet you can provide no proof of the level of oxidation that I am experiencing or that it in fact is negatively affecting my beer. Proof still matters if you are going to claim something. Just saying....

Scientific fact:

Oxidation occurs no matter what.  You can slow it but you can't stop it.

My claim:

You've become accustom to the level of oxidation that your process produces in your beers.

So I suggest that you measure your process and report back the DO level and all of this sets you off and makes you angry?

Please, set aside the alcohol and get some counseling.

Ease up. This is not the type of stuff that gives threads longevity.

[coonmanxdog]

I actually have not praticipated in any of these online forums before so it is interesting to see how some people think or do things. I just have a problem with the blanket statement of "you should never do secondary". Maybe this has already been discussed "ad naseum" and I missed it. Oh well.

[Big Monk]

I actually have not praticipated in any of these online forums before so it is interesting to see how some people think or do things. I just have a problem with the blanket statement of "you should never do secondary". Maybe this has already been discussed "ad naseum" and I missed it. Oh well.

The caveat has always been laid out that if you don't have to, you shouldn't do a secondary. I think the beef has always been that it's recommended, almost as an afterthought, to beginners when first starting out. Most new brewers don't have things like oxidation on their radar, so having them skip this unnecessary step until they understand the concepts and methods of transferring turns out to be sound advice.

Obviously, as you have pointed out, questions of logistics would make secondary a necessary step. Also, adding other ingredients to the fermenter, like fruit, etc., facilitates a transfer as well.

YMMV but there certainly isn't anything wrong with why you are doing it. Especially considering the fact that you seem to have a very good handle on the methods of oxygen free/limited tranasferring.

[EHall]

the bigger problem here is after all these years of having internet we, as a whole, still don't know how to take the context of printed text... and its easy to hide behind a monitor and say exactly what you want/feel. I think we have several folks who are probably suffering from cabin fever due to this shut down... who cares what the guy on the other side of the forum thinks? if you have something that works for you, do it. you don't have to engage with someone who doesn't like your process.... walk away, don't let the small things bug you.

[coonmanxdog]

the bigger problem here is after all these years of having internet we, as a whole, still don't know how to take the context of printed text... and its easy to hide behind a monitor and say exactly what you want/feel. I think we have several folks who are probably suffering from cabin fever due to this shut down... who cares what the guy on the other side of the forum thinks? if you have something that works for you, do it. you don't have to engage with someone who doesn't like your process.... walk away, don't let the small things bug you.

This.

And while science may be behind what we do... science does not actually brew the beer. A brewer does. And all brewers won't use the same methods....

Also, I don't subscribe to the idea that "if you don't have to do it, then don't do it". I actually believe that if done right it has some advantages. I think that people tend to blow up perceived risks as a way of saying that "only my way is the right way".... That is probably the biggest problem that I have with posts like that. A risk is just that, only a possibility. If it becomes a probability or not depends on the process used by the brewer and good process minimizes risk. There is absolutely nothing in this world that doesn't come with some risk.

[Iliff Ave]

So where's the serious discussion? Doesn't sound like you are trying to confirm your results or try something different. What's the goal?

[denny]

Seems to be a lot of "beer snobs" out there lately that think that if you do a secondary fermentation you will automatically get low quality beer. And I disagree 100%. Of course it has to be done correctly and I think that many people fail in that regard....

I go to secondary as soon as the head crashes on primary. That way the beer will still be giving off some CO2 and that CO2 will displace any oxygen that is present in the very small headspace that is in the secondary carboy. While transferring I also make sure that the end of the siphon hose is down into the beer as it fills the secondary so I am not introducing oxygen into the beer as I siphon. Also if the beer is still gassing off some CO2 then any oxygen that might get into the beer would get carried away by the CO2 as it leaves the beer. And finally, at that point in time, if the beer has not actually finished fermenting completely any oxygen will get eaten up by the millions of yeast cells that are still working in the beer.

In general, I go to secondary at the three day point in time but that will vary on the conditions present. My rule is to do it once the head has crashed on primary and also when the bubbles in the S-shaped fermentation lock reach one per minute or so. Those two things usually coincide quite well.

I have one large 7.5 gallon carboy that I use for primary and two 5 gallon carboys that I use for secondary. That works quite well because that way I can always have ten gallons of beer in various stages. Once in secondary there is no rush to get the beer into the keg either. Last year I waited three months before finally priming some beer in a keg for my birthday poker party. And it came out great, even with the temps getting pretty warm at times in my apartment (up to 80 degrees by the end of the day sometimes). I primed that keg with malt extract, threw it in my friend's basement (where it is cooler) and then we consumed it all in basically one evening and it was delicious.

I get very good and clear beer using this method and the beer does not suffer from oxidation at all. Yet there are people who will still try to convince me that there has to be something wrong with the beer, but they never have any evidence to back up their claims. I am very happy with the results and pretty much everyone who tastes what I brew says that it is very good beer. So I am quite confident in the process.

Haters going to hate.... We should have an actual discussion instead of this beer snobbery nonsense that seems to be going on. On a recent trip to a local brewery I was very unimpressed with what they were serving. It wasn't bad but I can make better beer than that. A friend of mine did indeed use the term "beer snobs" and I agreed with that assessment. I brew beer that anyone can enjoy. And I will stand behind any beer that I brew and even put it up against what anyone else brews.

Attitude wise, you have it so wrong

[denny]

I actually have not praticipated in any of these online forums before so it is interesting to see how some people think or do things. I just have a problem with the blanket statement of "you should never do secondary". Maybe this has already been discussed "ad naseum" and I missed it. Oh well.

Do you know who John Palmer, Chris White or Jamil Zainisheff are?

[coonmanxdog]

So where's the serious discussion? Doesn't sound like you are trying to confirm your results or try something different. What's the goal?

Maybe it is impossible to actually have a serious discussion on this topic because everyone sees it differently. Maybe that is because we all look at risk differently. Risk is actually what brings out the best in athletes. Take Kobe Bryant for example. If his team was down by two they would get the ball to him because they knew that he was comfortable under pressure and would take on the risk of a possible winning three point shot. Miss it and he is to blame. Make it and he wins the game.

It's called the risk vs. reward curve. It occurs everywhere in life doesn't it? I'm just not someone who believes that fear should rule my life. I understand risks and do things the way I do to minimize risk. And I believe that gets good results.

I doubt that you can get any two brewers to agree on exactly the perfect way to brew a beer or what the perfect beer is. That is what makes this hobby enjoyable. And the joy I get is when I share what I have crafted with others because that brings them joy as well. But we will never all agree on things. That much is certain. So why not have the discussion and let people voice their opinions. I don't know.

[denny]

the bigger problem here is after all these years of having internet we, as a whole, still don't know how to take the context of printed text... and its easy to hide behind a monitor and say exactly what you want/feel. I think we have several folks who are probably suffering from cabin fever due to this shut down... who cares what the guy on the other side of the forum thinks? if you have something that works for you, do it. you don't have to engage with someone who doesn't like your process.... walk away, don't let the small things bug you.

This.

And while science may be behind what we do... science does not actually brew the beer. A brewer does. And all brewers won't use the same methods....

Also, I don't subscribe to the idea that "if you don't have to do it, then don't do it". I actually believe that if done right it has some advantages. I think that people tend to blow up perceived risks as a way of saying that "only my way is the right way".... That is probably the biggest problem that I have with posts like that. A risk is just that, only a possibility. If it becomes a probability or not depends on the process used by the brewer and good process minimizes risk. There is absolutely nothing in this world that doesn't come with some risk.

What is been your experience not doing a secondary?  Have you tried it often?